In this episode of the AlchemistX Innovators Inside, host Ian Bergman welcomes back Robyn Bolton, author of Unlocking Innovation: A Leader’s Guide to Turning Bold Ideas into Tangible Results. Robyn makes a compelling case that innovation consistently fails not because of a lack of ideas, but because of leadership gaps.

Drawing from her work and insights in the book, Robyn shares a practical, realistic roadmap for leaders who want to move beyond buzzwords and frameworks to actually deliver results. Below, we highlight the five main takeaways from the conversation.

Here are the five key takeaways from their conversation:

1. Innovation Isn’t an Idea Problem—it’s a Leadership Problem

Too many organizations treat innovation like a brainstorming exercise or a hackathon. Robyn argues that the real barrier is leadership behavior. Executives must take ownership, set expectations, and model the willingness to take risks—otherwise innovation stalls

2. The ABCs of Innovation: Architecture, Behavior, and Culture

Robyn structures her book around three interconnected pillars:

• Architecture – strategy, processes, and systems.
  
  
• Behavior – the way leaders and teams act in practice.
  
  
• Culture – the norms and environment that sustain innovation.
  
  

Organizations fail when they focus only on architecture (decks, funnels, portfolios) and neglect the human side—behavior and culture.

3. Leaders Must Start with Self-Reflection

Before rushing to launch new programs, leaders should ask:

• Why am I driving innovation?
  
  
• What outcomes do I want, personally and professionally?
  
  
• What risks am I willing—and not willing—to take?
  
  

4. Value Creation Must Be Shown from Day One

Innovation teams can’t afford to go “stealth.” From the beginning, leaders must tell a value story: how the work aligns with company strategy and creates impact for customers. While ROI may take years, narrative proof and qualitative wins keep executives engaged and supportive.

Robyn notes that most innovation leaders face a three-year window. By year one, they must show alignment and learning. By year two, demonstrable indirect value. By year three, even small financial contributions—what she calls the “lemonade stand” moment.

5. Innovation Isn’t Baking—There’s No Recipe

Unlike baking, where precise measurements guarantee consistent results, innovation requires experimentation, flexibility, and learning from failure. Leaders must design systems that allow quick kills, fast iteration, and continuous storytelling of progress. Pretending there’s a foolproof recipe only sets teams up for frustration.

Innovation isn’t about waiting for the next great idea—it’s about leaders who create the conditions for those ideas to succeed. Robyn Bolton’s framework equips executives to take responsibility, embrace risk, and build a culture where innovation delivers tangible results.

Have a question for a future guest? Email us at innovators@alchemistaccelerator.com to get in touch! 

Timestamps

📌 Introduction to Robyn Bolton & Her Return to the Podcast (00:00:00)

🏛️ The ABCs of Innovation: Architecture, Behavior, Culture (00:03:31)

🪞 The Leader’s First Step: Self-Reflection and Risk Tolerance (00:05:39)

📊 The Three-Year Clock: Designing for Innovation Success Within Tenure (00:08:09)

📢 Telling the Story of Innovation: Value Narratives vs. ROI (00:14:23)

🧪 The Role of Experimentation, Learning, and Quick Kills (00:20:12)

🙌 Closing Thoughts & Book Launch Shoutout (00:30:00)

Full Transcript 

00:00:20:07 - 00:00:43:07
Ian Bergman
Welcome to season six of Alchemist x Innovators Inside the podcast, where we explore the world of corporate innovation and dive deep into the minds and stories of innovation, thought leaders crafting the future. I am your host, Ian Bergmann, and if you're an innovation agitator like me, then this is where you want to be. Robyn, it's so good to see you again.

00:00:43:09 - 00:00:47:14
Robyn Bolton
It is so great to see you again and to be back. I'm so excited.

00:00:47:16 - 00:00:54:15
Ian Bergman
So this is your second time on the pod. So I think I can officially call you like, a friend of innovators inside.

00:00:54:16 - 00:00:55:11
Robyn Bolton
Excellent.

00:00:55:11 - 00:00:57:04
Ian Bergman
Which I appreciate.

00:00:57:06 - 00:00:58:04
Robyn Bolton
Oh, so do I.

00:00:58:08 - 00:01:17:24
Ian Bergman
Well, and I so enjoyed our first conversation. I learned a lot there. You know, there's a there's a phrase you taught me that I just I can't help but keep repeating. And I'm going to bring it back in a second because it's kind of key to to your recent work here. And it was just such a fun conversation.

00:01:17:24 - 00:01:21:13
Ian Bergman
And since then you've gone and published a book.

00:01:21:15 - 00:01:24:14
Robyn Bolton
I did and went, wrote and published a book. Oh my.

00:01:24:14 - 00:01:49:15
Ian Bergman
Goodness. You know, for folks that missed the first episode, I'm just so pleased to welcome back Robyn Bolton, who is the published author of Unlocking Innovation A Leader's Guide to Turning Bold Ideas into Tangible Results. And I've got my copy here. It's annotated with some underlines and exclamation points on some key points, and I'd love to just talk about it.

00:01:49:17 - 00:02:00:08
Robyn Bolton
Yeah, let's do it. And I'm so glad you've underlined and you've dog eared. That's what I wanted for the book. Was it for it to be destroyed by you? So way to go.

00:02:00:10 - 00:02:03:01
Ian Bergman
Well. Let's go. I haven't gotten to the destruction yet, but.

00:02:03:01 - 00:02:04:24
Robyn Bolton
But we'll definitely hear that.

00:02:05:01 - 00:02:22:00
Ian Bergman
But. But you know, I want to start with. With the why of this book. Right? There's there's a lot that's been written on the topic of innovation. It's a conversation you and I have had before, you know, what was it that made you feel like you sort of needed to add to the literature that you had something new to say?

00:02:22:02 - 00:02:48:22
Robyn Bolton
That is a great question, because for a long time I looked at everything you said, which is all true of like there's tons of books out there, there are a ton of frameworks, and I think the world does not need one more book on innovation. Like, I'm not going to contribute to the onslaught of information, but there is this set of facts kept gnawing at me that, you know, it's been almost 30 years since The Innovator's Dilemma was published.

00:02:48:24 - 00:03:14:20
Robyn Bolton
And, you know, you look at everything that's happened in the innovation since then. Companies are talking about it. It's a strategic priority in a for a lot of CEOs. You have consultants all over the place. You have books all over the place. And yet the result of corporate innovation have not changed. Yeah. And so it's like, okay, if we've been doing the same thing for 30 years and nothing has changed.

00:03:14:21 - 00:03:34:12
Robyn Bolton
That is not the definition of innovation. That is the definition of insanity. And so what are we missing? And as I reflected over the work that I've done, I've realized that we tend to approach innovation in a very siloed manner. You know, we go in with what I call the architecture.

00:03:34:18 - 00:03:34:24
Ian Bergman
Yeah.

00:03:35:00 - 00:03:40:10
Robyn Bolton
You know, the strategy, the systems, the process. You know, here's how you have to structure team.

00:03:40:12 - 00:03:47:03
Ian Bergman
Your fancy, your fancy McKinsey esque decks that show all of your, your, your heart out. Your next three years of your life. Yep.

00:03:47:08 - 00:04:14:24
Robyn Bolton
Yes. And you know, here's our portfolio and here's the funnel. And all of that stuff is really important. It's necessary but not sufficient for innovation results to change. And as I look back over the companies that I've worked with, what really set the successful ones apart was the behavior of their leaders and how they approached building or reinforcing a culture of innovation.

00:04:14:24 - 00:04:27:20
Robyn Bolton
And so that led to kind of the structure of the book around the ABCs the architecture, behavior, and culture, and how you have to work on all of those things in a much more holistic manner to try to change the results.

00:04:27:22 - 00:04:52:09
Ian Bergman
Well, and that's a really good segue. I kind of teased it earlier, but I've been quoting you. I've been quoting you with this notion that innovation is not an idea problem. It's a leadership problem. It's something you said to me when I first met. It's got its own full page near the beginning of the book. And, you know, you really hammer that point home at the, you know, early on in the book.

00:04:52:09 - 00:05:14:05
Ian Bergman
And I think it's I think it's really important for a bunch of reasons. But, you know, you talk about it being a leadership problem, you use a phrase, it's not a spectator sport, right? You can't have executives kind of dropping in and out of this idea of innovation. So, you know, I hear you that there there's something that needs to change in the way corporations do innovation now.

00:05:14:10 - 00:05:39:16
Ian Bergman
And there's something that that, you know, people need a kind of a practical guide to like, okay, like, I hear you, this isn't working, but like, what do what do I do? So let's start there. Let's start with setting, you know, setting the framework, setting the architecture. And what does a leader need to realize if they want drive innovation in their company?

00:05:39:18 - 00:05:58:17
Robyn Bolton
Yes. And, you know, being very practical, I mean, that's that's so much of what drove writing the book is like, we need a practical guide. And if I'm going to say and you, since you quote me, are going to say that innovation isn't an idea problem, it's a leadership problem. It's only fair to get really clear around okay, leadership.

00:05:58:17 - 00:06:29:16
Robyn Bolton
Okay, leaders, what do you need to do? And so that's why the book starts with telling, you know leader like great. You're in charge of innovation. However that happened you're now in charge. Now before you run out and start talking to everyone and building all the architecture, get really clear with yourself around why you're doing this. And so came to be like, because I was told to what you want out of it, both personally and professionally, and what you are and aren't willing to do.

00:06:29:18 - 00:06:30:16
Ian Bergman
Yeah.

00:06:30:18 - 00:06:49:18
Robyn Bolton
Because so often, you know, leaders get so excited, like, oh, we're going to innovate. We're going to disrupt ourselves. You know, all this stuff. And I was like, great. And then you bring them an idea of like, let's change the bag from blue to red and like, get out of my office. Yeah, yeah. Like, no, there's such a disconnect that self-reflection.

00:06:49:21 - 00:07:07:19
Ian Bergman
Yeah, there's such a disconnect. And that self-reflection on what you're willing to do is so important. And, like, it ties back to something else you said. That actually really struck me. This is it's kind of buried early on in your book, but I think it's really important. I'm going to read I'm going to read from your book here.

00:07:07:21 - 00:07:31:13
Ian Bergman
Okay. As risky as innovation is for an organization, it's also risky personally and professionally. And you talk about that, of course, in the context of tenure and the fact that doesn't always work out. Yeah, but tell me more about that, because I, you know, I think a lot of people don't go in eyes wide open to, you know, what, what results are they actually going to have for themselves in the organization.

00:07:31:15 - 00:07:44:11
Robyn Bolton
Yes. Yeah. It is. It is risky in a very early version of the book, there was like a half chapter called Here Be Monsters, which is like, okay, at this point you're probably going to get fired. Don't worry, it's not your fault. And like, no, we can't, we can't terrify.

00:07:44:13 - 00:07:47:08
Ian Bergman
Maybe we're not going to go that, that market.

00:07:47:10 - 00:08:09:11
Robyn Bolton
But but no, I mean, there there was great research done by, you know, leading to the average tenure at different, you know, levels of the organization focused on innovation. And the average is around three years. Yeah. And, you know, that is that's a fact that we just have to accept, you know, we can rail against it. We can say that's not fair.

00:08:09:11 - 00:08:36:11
Robyn Bolton
We can say that innovation needs more time. Oh, that is true. But let's take the three years and let's start then designing how we're going to succeed on a three year timeline. And this is also where the self-reflection as a leader, what am I willing to do and not do? Because I look back at, you know, my early days of my career, you know, I'm fresh out of college age and renting an apartment in Cincinnati.

00:08:36:13 - 00:08:44:16
Robyn Bolton
I did stuff like I nearly got fired three separate times while I was a PA, and I didn't care. Now.

00:08:44:18 - 00:08:46:09
Ian Bergman
You may not have even known.

00:08:46:11 - 00:09:10:08
Robyn Bolton
Oh, there was one time I was staring down HR, my GM, but I'm like, before you fire me, here's the approval you signed. Amazing. No, you know, I'm a little bit older, a little bit more mature, have a little bit more responsibility. And I don't know that I would have take would take those same risks. Yeah. And you know, that doesn't mean I was wrong when I was in my 20s.

00:09:10:08 - 00:09:27:10
Robyn Bolton
It doesn't mean I'm wrong now. It just means this where I am in life, there are things that I'm willing to do and not willing to do. And getting clear on that is is so critical. I was like, I'm willing to take risks up to a certain point and beyond that point, I got it back down.

00:09:27:12 - 00:09:48:03
Ian Bergman
Well, and it's so tied up into this whole idea that almost by definition, innovation is, you know, involves risk taking, right? And learning from those risks. But yeah, I mean, if you're not willing to personally and professionally take some risks, like what are we doing here? But hey, okay, so hey, I've got a question for you.

00:09:48:05 - 00:09:49:11
Robyn Bolton
Yeah. Bring it on.

00:09:49:13 - 00:09:51:19
Ian Bergman
What's innovation?

00:09:51:21 - 00:10:23:05
Robyn Bolton
What is innovation? Yeah, that's another one of the first things in the book was like, you got to define innovation because you walk into a room of six people, you're going to get eight different definitions at least. So for me, innovation is something new that creates value. And that sorry short definition, but it encompasses a lot of things because the same thing could be a product, it could be a process, it could be a revenue like something could be almost anything.

00:10:23:07 - 00:10:23:23
Ian Bergman
Yep.

00:10:24:00 - 00:10:36:01
Robyn Bolton
And new could be new to the world, but it could be new to your industry, new to your company, maybe even new to your functional team. Because new requires change. And change is hard.

00:10:36:03 - 00:10:36:22
Ian Bergman
Yes.

00:10:36:24 - 00:10:47:06
Robyn Bolton
And then the most important part of that definition is creates value. Because if you're not creating value, what are you doing? Like you're wasting time and resources.

00:10:47:10 - 00:10:51:19
Ian Bergman
Nobody's and nobody's going to change. Like change for change sake doesn't help anyone.

00:10:51:21 - 00:11:13:00
Robyn Bolton
Right. So you know, so often and you know, especially I think around innovation events, people are like, let's have a hackathon. And people come up with really great ideas and they get all excited. But there's no clear line of sight to, okay, how is this going to create value for the company, for our customers? How does this align with our priorities?

00:11:13:02 - 00:11:31:07
Robyn Bolton
And so then nothing happens. And it's like this big want more? And people get sad and demotivated and cynical and like it just kind of devolves from something that was the best intention. So value creation is absolutely critical to making something innovative.

00:11:31:09 - 00:11:52:14
Ian Bergman
And win win in kind of the innovation process. Do you start to assess value creation? Right. Because I think, you know, you make a pretty compelling point that there's a lot of groundwork that you have to lay before you start delivering change. But everybody is looking for that value right at the beginning. Right. Everybody wants to be out the hackathon.

00:11:52:19 - 00:11:56:20
Ian Bergman
Yep. You know, so, so how patient do you have to be?

00:11:56:22 - 00:12:23:01
Robyn Bolton
Oh, I so on one hand very patient. On the other hand not patient at all. So let me explain that because that's very contradictory. So from day one, from the very beginning, you need to make sure that what you're working on creates value for your customers, whoever they are. Internal external. So you have to create value for the people that you're creating something for.

00:12:23:03 - 00:13:00:07
Robyn Bolton
And it has to create value for your company. And in the early days, that's about making sure that it's aligned with the organization's strategies and priorities. So from day one, you have to be able to tell a story of this is going to create value for people and for the organization. But that's a story around value worth because you're not going to create revenue or cost savings or profit on day one, where as the idea progresses, I think you need to be able to demonstrate value, which again, could be qualitative around like, hey, we got these learnings.

00:13:00:09 - 00:13:21:04
Robyn Bolton
We realized they could help this team in our core business. So we, you know, handed it off to them. They're using these learnings. Here's how they're using it. And here are the results we're seeing from the learnings. So kind of indirect value creation. And then I'd say honestly year three you have to be able to put some dollars and cents.

00:13:21:06 - 00:13:32:22
Robyn Bolton
Even if it even if it's like, look somebody paid us a dollar and we made $0.50 off of this because we set up a lemonade stand. You've got to be able to contribute, to contribute finance.

00:13:32:22 - 00:13:53:11
Ian Bergman
Some kind of like highly measurable financial ROI. Exactly. I mean, I think it's I think it's really interesting. And you're speaking to sort of how you broken up the book, right. Year one, year two, year three. It really is that practical of a playbook. I think it's really interesting, though, that you're pushing leaders and pushing innovation teams to show a narrative early.

00:13:53:13 - 00:13:54:07
Robyn Bolton
Yeah.

00:13:54:09 - 00:14:02:16
Ian Bergman
But say that, you know, you do have a couple of years and in fact, you almost need to give yourself a couple years to try to connect this to dollars and cents.

00:14:02:18 - 00:14:03:00
Robyn Bolton
Yeah.

00:14:03:04 - 00:14:23:04
Ian Bergman
And that can be incredibly hard in an organization where maybe, you know, your C-suite leadership is churning or priorities are changing, or there's public pressures, etc.. Yeah. So, you know, what do you do along the way? What sits behind the story and the, you know, ROI, however you can measure it?

00:14:23:06 - 00:14:42:14
Robyn Bolton
Yeah, that's another one of the leaders roles. It's kind of a I equated to like if you have kids and, you know, they're playing in the other room, what do you hear them laughing and yelling and whatever. You're not worried. It's when they go quiet that you get really, really concerned. Yeah. The same thing is true in an organization.

00:14:42:14 - 00:15:14:09
Robyn Bolton
You know, so many innovation teams are like, you know, we got to go stealth. It's like, no, that is the equivalent of the kids going quiet. And now, you know, the leaders, the executives in the company are either assuming the worst or they're forgetting about you. And both of those are bad because you are a cost. Yes. And so what the leader needs to be doing is telling the stories early and often, talking about the value that's being created constantly.

00:15:14:11 - 00:15:32:23
Robyn Bolton
And that's a critical role of the leader, is to be that that evangelist and not evangelist is like believe. And I say it's like, here's proof. I'm bringing you proof that we're creating value, that we're doing the right work in the right way for the organization.

00:15:33:00 - 00:15:50:20
Ian Bergman
And work that ladders up to some message of progress. Right? I have to imagine, because you can always like, oh, absolutely. You know, I don't know if you talked about this in the book. I didn't I didn't see this. But one of my observations is that so often in an attempt to be that evangelist and show stories, leaders will push their teams to show me anything.

00:15:50:20 - 00:15:57:00
Ian Bergman
Right. And you may get an incubation of some crazy new idea that people look at like, that's a neat toy, but I don't I don't see how it.

00:15:57:05 - 00:15:57:12
Robyn Bolton
Yeah.

00:15:57:18 - 00:16:11:05
Ian Bergman
Is progress. So, you know, there is a a line that leaders have to walk here in making sure that they're communicating, but making sure that it continues to ladder up toward your three year and three year plus vision. Is that right?

00:16:11:07 - 00:16:19:17
Robyn Bolton
Absolutely. Yeah. If you if you start working on something that you can tie to what matters to the company, you are at risk.

00:16:19:19 - 00:16:40:09
Ian Bergman
Yeah. And that's a I think, a really important point. I want to pivot to another one of my just like absolute favorite little one liners that I found in this book. So I am a terrible baker, by the way. Like, okay, except when I'm really good and it's really funny, I will challenge anyone. I make some of the best chocolate chip cookies in the world.

00:16:40:11 - 00:16:42:22
Robyn Bolton
Oh, we're going to have to have a throwdown on that.

00:16:43:00 - 00:16:47:14
Ian Bergman
We'll have a let's do it, I guess my favorite type of threat because you can't lose, right? You're getting good.

00:16:47:16 - 00:16:48:06
Robyn Bolton
Cookies.

00:16:48:08 - 00:17:06:20
Ian Bergman
Like, but but people ask me how and I'm like, well I kind of give them a recipe ish, but I don't really know. It's a little bit different every time. It just kind of comes together and works. Yeah, and baking is normally not like that. Like baking is normally like a scientific process where the best bakers are measuring in grams and ounces and etc..

00:17:06:22 - 00:17:33:18
Ian Bergman
And you said something really interesting here. You said innovation isn't baking. You said there's no recipe that, if followed precisely, results in the lightest, fluffiest chocolate. This butter is sweet but not too sweet. Chocolate chip cookie. And I think that is so important. And let me tell you why. Because I want your thoughts on this so often. The innovation teams that I've had a chance to work with, they grew up out of engineering organizations.

00:17:33:18 - 00:17:57:24
Ian Bergman
It might be sometimes it gets segmented off, sometimes it's software. And I know that's not always the case. You came up through CPG in a very different lens, but yeah, they grew up through people that are looking for precision. If I do A and I add B, I get C. Why did you find it so important to emphasize that this is not actually a paint by numbers playbook?

00:17:57:24 - 00:18:00:11
Ian Bergman
And if it's not, what do you do.

00:18:00:13 - 00:18:27:12
Robyn Bolton
Right. So there's definitely kind of where are the people tasked with innovation have come from? I think there's also, you know, the work over the past 30 years has fed this belief because we talked about, you know, design thinking. Yeah, innovation process and I'm 100% guilty of this. You know, when I start working with clients, you know, I show them this nice, you know, here's five steps and we're going to follow these five steps.

00:18:27:12 - 00:19:01:19
Robyn Bolton
And so we have solutely give the impression that it's a recipe. If we do a b c, d we will get money. And we don't talk about the fact that within each of those steps there are so many unknowns, there's so many things that could go haywire, some in our control, most out of our control. And through our messaging to again get senior executives on board, people who are used to being to having that predictability.

00:19:01:21 - 00:19:22:13
Robyn Bolton
We've kind of fit the truth to to be heard instead of being like, yeah, we have we have a process. So we're not making this up as we go. We do have a plan, but there is unpredictability in the plan and we're just bad at acknowledging that.

00:19:22:15 - 00:19:47:14
Ian Bergman
I think we're bad at acknowledging the amount of experimentation that you have to build in to the plan. And I mean, you talk about this in sort of the development phase, I think right up here you're kind of five step process here, the five D's I like it. But yeah that's really hard right. Because experimentation in kind of a purely scientific sense, like you almost don't know if it has an end.

00:19:47:17 - 00:20:14:20
Ian Bergman
You could experiment, you could iterate forever. I don't know if you have anything to add to this, but that has always been one of the hardest things for me when I'm working with teams inside large enterprises that are trying to figure out how to operate like innovators, operate like entrepreneurs. This idea that we have to have a system that allows for and measures and reports on the results of experiments.

00:20:14:22 - 00:20:54:15
Robyn Bolton
Yeah, yeah it is it is really tough. It's you know, I, I often start with saying, okay, you know, we can't just wander and be like, let's see what happens. Because an organization can't support that. Like people's heads will explode and your budget will go away. So you need to have milestones. And you know, one of the things that I advocate for is at least every 90 days, you need to be pulling your head up and being like, hey, how are we doing towards kind of big milestones of like, by the end of the year, we need to have a working prototype.

00:20:54:21 - 00:21:08:18
Robyn Bolton
Like I don't know what that prototype is going to look like. I don't know what it's going to do, but we need to be on our way to a prototype. So it's kind of setting those milestones that are defined but not perfectly defined.

00:21:08:22 - 00:21:09:02
Ian Bergman
Yeah.

00:21:09:03 - 00:21:20:07
Robyn Bolton
To create the space for you to learn, but also to make sure that you don't just kind of go into this endless learning, explore discovery cycle, which a lot of people love.

00:21:20:12 - 00:21:21:11
Ian Bergman
Sure it's fun.

00:21:21:13 - 00:21:29:24
Robyn Bolton
And also making sure that people like me who are like, let's get to an answer. Yeah, don't don't inadvertently cut off the exploration that's needed.

00:21:30:01 - 00:21:38:06
Ian Bergman
So the structure allows teams to kind of time bound that, you know, get make sure that make sure that there is a little bit of a deadline.

00:21:38:08 - 00:21:39:06
Robyn Bolton
Yeah.

00:21:39:08 - 00:22:04:23
Ian Bergman
So we've actually spent a fair bit of time just in this podcast talking about some of the elements that just go into kind of year one. Yeah, of building out a team, like getting yourself in the head space, understanding the kind of the architecture and the plan. I'll tell you a funny little story. So as I was flipping through this and I got to year two, I saw the title of your first chapter, and the title of the first chapter in year two is Faith.

00:22:05:00 - 00:22:11:23
Ian Bergman
And I don't want to spoil it for the readers because, you know, it turns out it's actually about a person named Faith Scott.

00:22:12:00 - 00:22:12:19
Robyn Bolton
Yes.

00:22:12:21 - 00:22:32:08
Ian Bergman
I saw that. And I was like, oh, enter a year or two is when you'd like you have to actually just kind of have faith that you've set yourself up. Well, so that that's for me for a bit of a loop, not a bill of books. I was like, oh, she's she's doubling down. She's doubling down on you've set yourself up.

00:22:32:08 - 00:22:39:24
Ian Bergman
You have faith. Here's how, how you execute. Yeah. You actually do that through the story of an innovation leader named Faith. But let's talk about year two.

00:22:40:00 - 00:22:40:15
Robyn Bolton
Yeah.

00:22:40:15 - 00:22:58:17
Ian Bergman
So in year one you've really had to kind of think about your strategy and plan your, you know, culture, assembling the team like architectural stuff. And it's hard and it's important or else you're just going to randomly iterate yourself to death. What does a year to look like?

00:22:58:19 - 00:23:23:06
Robyn Bolton
Year two is in my mind, year two is honestly make or break. And you know, you've set up in year one. You set up solid foundation. Year two is when the organization around you that was so psyched for innovation, super supportive. Like, yeah, on board. They've all gone back to their day jobs.

00:23:23:12 - 00:23:24:16
Ian Bergman
Yeah.

00:23:24:18 - 00:23:53:19
Robyn Bolton
And they're looking at their quarterly numbers, their KPIs. And they're now starting to ask questions about like, wait a minute, what are you doing for me? How are you helping me? What are you adding? And so this is one the organization around you is going to start asking questions and asking questions that could be uncomfortable. But it's like you can tell that like reality in doubt is starting to creep in.

00:23:53:21 - 00:24:20:02
Robyn Bolton
And so year two is where you either win them over because you are showing results. You do have stories of progress. You are able to show impact. And again it's it's small. You're not adding 100 million to the bottom line, but it's enough to get to keep people on board and at least keep them curious and kind of willing to trust you.

00:24:20:04 - 00:24:21:09
Ian Bergman
They're on for the ride.

00:24:21:11 - 00:24:28:18
Robyn Bolton
They're along for the ride, because if you lose them in a year or two, you're three. You're now on the chopping block. Yeah.

00:24:28:20 - 00:24:47:15
Ian Bergman
And it just strikes me that you're continuing to talk over and over again about things that I'd classify as soft skills, communication, measurement, you know, kind of reflection like. And how are you communicating that reflection is innovation. Just soft skills in a corporation?

00:24:47:17 - 00:24:49:17
Robyn Bolton
No. And for leaders it's a.

00:24:49:17 - 00:24:51:15
Ian Bergman
Long but also kind of yes.

00:24:51:17 - 00:25:15:20
Robyn Bolton
Yeah. For leaders in a lot of ways it is. And the reason is, is that, you know, I talk about this in the book, is that innovation and operations running your core business are completely opposite things. And most of us have come up through the core business. And that part of the organization is what Rita McGrath calls high knowledge, low assumption, right.

00:25:15:22 - 00:25:34:12
Robyn Bolton
So you can predict cause and effect. You have a really good gut instinct about what's going to happen next. Do you have experience you can base things on? You can answer the questions that come at you, whereas innovation is the opposite. My assumption learned knowledge. You don't know what's going to happen next. You can't predict cause and effect.

00:25:34:14 - 00:25:58:12
Robyn Bolton
You don't know the timeline for ROI. And yet, you know executives, leaders, we try to do everything we did in operation and innovation, and we have the same expectations of like, oh, well, when I talked to this team, which, by the way, happens to be in core business, I know what I'm going to get. I know what they will produce three months from now.

00:25:58:14 - 00:26:29:06
Robyn Bolton
I don't know that in innovation. Yeah. And it's really, really hard. Which is why those soft skills around communication, around thinking differently about value creation and thinking differently about results is really critical, because you've got to somehow, you know, feed the monster. That is the desire for all the things that the core business can give with something that kind of looks like that, but is still true to a high assumption, low knowledge and piece of work.

00:26:29:08 - 00:26:50:19
Ian Bergman
I think that's and I think that's a great framework. And even though I pushed you on like, is this just all soft skills? I think we all know, and I think you make the point that there is actually some incredibly disciplined governance that, yes, is really critical as an innovation leader. Right? Like, yes, you need to communicate, you need to protect, but you also need to prioritize.

00:26:50:19 - 00:27:04:03
Ian Bergman
You need to make sure that you're sticking to prioritize. Can you can you just talk to me about some of the like sort of like high discipline, don't go off the rails governance that you articulate in the book that you think leaders should have in mind.

00:27:04:05 - 00:27:32:14
Robyn Bolton
Yeah, one of the most powerful tools I've seen, and I use it in every, you know, with every client I work with is what I call the innovation playground. And it it defines where you can do the innovation work and the exploring because so often people like, no, we don't want to constrain innovation. It's blue sky, it's white piece of paper, pick your color, pick your noun, and all of that takes time and resources.

00:27:32:16 - 00:27:58:03
Robyn Bolton
And so if people can explore anything, odds are they're going to be exploring things that you're not willing to fund that aren't aligned with the strategy or the priorities. And that's waste. So very early on, you know, you set up a playground around, okay, here are, you know, elements of our business gross profit margin, you know, customers we serve.

00:27:58:09 - 00:28:20:17
Robyn Bolton
You can come up with the dimension any dimensions. And then you say, all right what's desirable kind of think of that as like the swing set on the playground. Like if we do something in the space. Yes, it's easy. It's lined, it's obvious. Fantastic. Then what is discussed? Avoid. Think of this as kind of like, you know, the open field next to playgrounds where you kind of have to make your own fun.

00:28:20:19 - 00:28:46:02
Robyn Bolton
And those are the things we're like, yeah, maybe, like, I'd be open to that. And then there's the the forbidden, you know, kind of the, the road. You don't want to go play in the road. And those are the things that just, you know, they make your stomach clench. You're like, this would never be free to we would never do that and get really clear about those things.

00:28:46:02 - 00:29:03:08
Robyn Bolton
And one, it's important to note that the stuff that is out of bounds, it doesn't mean that you will never do it. It just means that you need to have a really serious discussion, backed by a good amount of data, in order to do it. You don't do it lightly.

00:29:03:10 - 00:29:04:00
Ian Bergman
Yeah.

00:29:04:02 - 00:29:28:21
Robyn Bolton
And that simple tool of just outlining here are the boundaries that we're going to work in. It can help you. I hate to say this. It can help you prioritize projects, which is good. It can help you kill projects. Yeah. Which is so hard to do. But, you know, it's like turning flowers or a tree, like you have to cut off the dead stuff so that the whole thing can thrive.

00:29:28:23 - 00:29:36:07
Robyn Bolton
Yeah. And that innovation playground helps you do it without seeming like it's personal. Like the whim of a manager.

00:29:36:09 - 00:29:56:24
Ian Bergman
Well, and I think that's actually a very important point without making it seem like it's personal or, you know, opaque in, in decision making because, yeah, killing off projects is hard, but it is actually so important. I mean, this is a conversation I have with entrepreneurs all the time, right? Entrepreneurs or startups and our, you know, may be struggling.

00:29:56:24 - 00:30:21:20
Ian Bergman
They feel like they're swimming, you know, against the current and sometimes you're going to swim against the current for a while. But at some point you need to realize that if you like, you're it's just draining your energy. And you could do you could string this thing along for years and like, you know, suck out your life force and you know, you're going to just be the totally burnt out instead of re-energized for the next thing.

00:30:21:22 - 00:30:26:03
Ian Bergman
And it's I think it's similar. Like I hear you saying something very similar. Right.

00:30:26:05 - 00:30:26:19
Robyn Bolton


00:30:26:21 - 00:30:37:11
Ian Bergman
You need to be able to define the boundaries, be able to say, okay, this isn't working, it's out of bounds, etc., so that you can kill it so that you can refocus the team's energy and resources, which are finite, on the things that are going to work.

00:30:37:13 - 00:30:37:23
Robyn Bolton
Right.

00:30:38:02 - 00:30:39:13
Ian Bergman
And that does take discipline.

00:30:39:15 - 00:30:40:14
Robyn Bolton
And it's hard.

00:30:40:16 - 00:30:58:07
Ian Bergman
It's actually really hard. I mean, you know, okay. So I mean, you talk about like, you know, you talk about how hard it is to justify killing something sometimes. But I got to tell you, like in my experience, it's actually harder, it's harder to actually make the decision, oh, like, this isn't working. Let's kill it like that. That actually really hard for people.

00:30:58:09 - 00:31:20:20
Robyn Bolton
It's so hard because it's so much a part of you, right? Like you've sunk yourself into it and, you know, in a big organization, you've been talking about it and all of a sudden, after talking about it for four months and telling the story about how great it is, you're like, yeah, we're not doing that anymore. Like you just naturally worry about, like, are people going to think I'm an idiot?

00:31:20:22 - 00:31:25:12
Robyn Bolton
Are people going to think that, like, I've been lied to, that like, you get into this headspace.

00:31:25:13 - 00:31:27:22
Ian Bergman
Did I waste my time and I waste my life.

00:31:27:24 - 00:31:50:19
Robyn Bolton
Right. But and so you're like, no, I will make this work. And again, that's part of the leaders role of educating the broader organization is like, hey, sometimes the best thing to do is kill something quick and get on to the next thing. It doesn't mean we were wrong. It meant we didn't have it. We got new information that led to a different decision.

00:31:50:21 - 00:31:53:00
Robyn Bolton
And that's what learning is.

00:31:53:02 - 00:32:02:24
Ian Bergman
Well, Robyn, there are so many nuggets of wisdom, but also a really practical playbook to follow in this book. It's got it's definitely got my recommendation.

00:32:03:03 - 00:32:03:21
Robyn Bolton
Thank you.

00:32:03:22 - 00:32:08:15
Ian Bergman
I want to ask you a question that I know every author struggles with.

00:32:08:17 - 00:32:09:10
Robyn Bolton
Okay.

00:32:09:12 - 00:32:14:18
Ian Bergman
What didn't make the book that you really wish could have or should have?

00:32:14:20 - 00:32:17:04
Robyn Bolton
What didn't make the book?

00:32:17:09 - 00:32:29:17
Ian Bergman
There's always stuff, and sometimes it's because it didn't ladder up to the story. Sometimes it's because it was controversial. Like what? What did you have to leave on the on the cutting room floor?

00:32:29:19 - 00:32:55:07
Robyn Bolton
I have to say, I actually mentioned earlier my little There Be Monsters. Yeah. Half chapter where I kind of originally like step outside of the narrative and was like, look, I'm just I'm going to tell you all the things that you don't want to hear that you need to hear. And it's brutal and it's painful, but you're going to experience it.

00:32:55:07 - 00:33:17:22
Robyn Bolton
So, like, I just want you to be forewarned and, you know, it gets kind of I think at one, one time it was called just Abandon hope. All you enter here, but you know, it. Innovation is hard and it is risky. And, you know, it's easy to look at the projects and say, yeah, you know, there's risks there.

00:33:17:22 - 00:33:40:19
Robyn Bolton
And we have tools to manage that risk. But it is risky personally and professionally. You know, because you are at times potentially needing to put your your job on the line, your reputation on the line and it's it's okay if you're not willing to do that, but you need to make decisions based on what you are and are willing to do.

00:33:40:19 - 00:33:58:07
Robyn Bolton
And so it's uncomfortable to kind of do that introspection and that self-reflection. But if you don't, the repercussions are bigger and wider than you can imagine. So it was about to be a point of real tough love. But I'm like, we'll just we'll leave that to later. Maybe.

00:33:58:07 - 00:34:22:14
Ian Bergman
Let's not spare though. Yes. Yeah. No, I, I totally get it. It is a, it is a line to walk but you know, when I reflect back on kind of the moments professionally for me when I have regrets, actually so many of them are because I didn't quite take that risk, stand up for that thing like I didn't I didn't go that extra step.

00:34:22:16 - 00:34:40:13
Ian Bergman
And, you know, I think the point that you're making, whether it's through tough love, whether it's through kind of more nurturing frameworks, right, is that you do you have to be thoughtful, but you also have to be convicted. And so much of this is about developing conviction and and reflecting on the work and on how far you've come.

00:34:40:13 - 00:34:41:16
Ian Bergman
Yeah. In information.

00:34:41:19 - 00:35:08:10
Robyn Bolton
Yeah. And to be truthful, all the innovators I've met are these wonderfully, realistically optimistic people who they see the potential, they see how things could be better. And it's just core to their nature to make things better. And so you can't scare them off. And so it's like, you know what, what what we need most, what I needed most when I was doing this work with my client, most is support.

00:35:08:16 - 00:35:08:23
Ian Bergman
Yeah.

00:35:09:04 - 00:35:26:10
Robyn Bolton
And someone walking with them and being like, no, no, no scary now will be okay. Or like, yeah, that was a tough meeting. It's going to be okay. Here's what we're going to do. And so that's why it's like this book is all about supporting the brave people who want to make change. So let's just focus on the support.

00:35:26:12 - 00:35:36:07
Ian Bergman
Amazing. Well, it's a wonderful book, as everyone knows, with any good presentation, it's always nice to have kind of one more thing at the end.

00:35:36:08 - 00:35:37:02
Robyn Bolton
One more thing.

00:35:37:03 - 00:35:40:16
Ian Bergman
Do you have a one more thing that you want to add to this conversation?

00:35:40:18 - 00:35:55:04
Robyn Bolton
That's my amazing chocolate chip cookie recipe can be found on the final page of the notes section at the back, with with how I modify it to make it gluten and dairy free.

00:35:55:06 - 00:36:18:15
Ian Bergman
We are so having this throwdown and I cannot wait. Robin, thank you so much for joining us again on Innovators Inside You know, best of luck with the launch of your book. You will be linking it to that. The show notes I genuinely do highly recommend it. There's just so many nuggets of wisdom that are both practical, inspirational and sometimes cautionary that I think are really helpful.

00:36:18:15 - 00:36:21:19
Ian Bergman
So thank you for writing it and thanks for joining us again.

00:36:21:21 - 00:36:23:07
Robyn Bolton
Thank you. This has been great.

00:36:23:11 - 00:36:26:01
Ian Bergman
Awesome. Have a good one. Happy April fools.

00:36:26:03 - 00:36:29:17
Robyn Bolton
Yeah. Happy April Fools.

00:36:29:19 - 00:36:50:10
Ian Bergman
And that's a wrap for today's episode of alchemists Dax. Innovators inside. Thanks for listening. If you found value in today's discussion, be sure to subscribe to our podcast and check out our segments on YouTube. Links and follow ups are in the show notes, and if you have questions you want us to feature in future episodes, email innovators at Alchemist accelerator.com.

00:36:50:12 - 00:36:55:04
Ian Bergman
Stay tuned for more insider stories and practical insights from leaders. Crafting our future.