In this episode of the AlchemistX Innovators Inside, we dive into the inner world of leadership with Ian Bergman, Layne Fawns and Dr. Sharon Spano PhD, an expert in human and organizational development who works with high-impact founders and executives.

This conversation moves past the usual themes of hustle and high performance. Instead, it digs into why achievement can eventually lose its sense of fulfillment and what leaders need to understand about themselves in order to innovate at the highest level.

Here are the five key takeaways from their conversation:

1. Achievement Alone Will Not Sustain Fulfillment

Many founders and executives operate in what Sharon calls the achiever stage of adult development. This is the stage where ambition, goal setting, and execution dominate. It works well—until it doesn’t.

After hitting the metrics, earning the title, or securing the exit, high achievers often feel a surprising sense of emptiness. That internal friction is not failure. It is the signal that it is time to evolve into a deeper form of leadership.

Understanding this turning point is key for leaders who want long-term fulfillment rather than short-term wins.

2. Unresolved Trauma Shapes How Leaders Show Up

One of the most powerful insights Dr. Spano brings is the reality that unresolved trauma—both capital T and lowercase t—shows up in boardrooms, investor calls, and team dynamics.

Anger, impatience, avoidance, overcontrol, defensiveness, or hyper-independence often trace back to earlier life experiences. When leaders begin exploring the roots of these patterns, they gain the ability to regulate their reactions and lead from clarity instead of reactivity.

Addressing trauma is not just personal development. It is a strategic leadership advantage.

3. Self-Awareness Is the Engine of Innovation

Innovators are constantly solving new problems, imagining alternate futures, and navigating ambiguity. Without self-awareness, the mind becomes crowded with stress, ego, and survival-mode thinking.

Sharon explains that leaders who strengthen internal awareness access:

• clearer decision making
• greater cognitive flexibility
• more openness to ideas
• deeper collaboration
• faster recovery from stress

Innovation does not just come from strong execution. It comes from leaders who know themselves well enough to see beyond their own perspective.

4.  Leadership Evolves Through Conscious Development

Sharon outlines the concept of “later-stage development,” where leaders expand their perspective, integrate more complexity, and operate with a greater sense of calm and purpose.

Advancing into these later stages does not mean losing ambition. It means moving from reactive leadership to intentional leadership.

Leaders in advanced stages:
• hold long-term vision more easily
• blend ambition with balance
• stay centered under pressure
• navigate conflicting ideas more clearly
• empower teams instead of micromanaging

This evolution creates the internal capacity necessary for meaningful innovation.

5. Somatic Awareness & Boundaries Are Now Core Leadership Skills

Modern leaders are overwhelmed—information overload, shifting markets, AI acceleration, remote work, and constant context switching. Sharon emphasizes that high performers must learn to regulate their bodies and nervous systems if they want to stay clear, calm, and effective.

She encourages:

• breathwork
• meditation
• intentional media consumption
• structured boundaries with technology
• tuning into physical cues (tightness, heart rate, agitation)

These practices help leaders stay present, maintain emotional control, and prevent burnout—ultimately making them more strategic and creative.

Dr. Sharon Spano PhD brings a refreshing, profound, and deeply human perspective to leadership. For founders and innovators, the path to the next breakthrough is not just about better strategy or more hustle. It begins with developing the inner capacity to think, feel, and lead at a more conscious level.

If you’re a high achiever sensing that something needs to change, this episode offers a powerful roadmap for what comes next.

Have a question for a future guest? Email us at innovators@alchemistaccelerator.com to get in touch! 

Timestamps

🎯 00:00:00 Rethinking success for high-impact leaders

👩‍👦 00:02:28 Sharon’s path from advocacy mom to leadership advisor

🧱 00:06:12 The achiever stage and the emptiness of success

🧭 00:09:01 Moving from “stuck” into deeper growth

🏔 00:11:53 Consciousness as a mountain and center of gravity

🧠 00:19:27 Why self-awareness matters for innovation

👑 00:21:24 Founder syndrome, ego, and learning to listen

⚙️ 00:28:05 Leadership in a fast, tech-driven world

💥 00:33:43 Trauma, triggers, and anger at work

🫁 00:35:22 Somatic awareness, breathwork, and calmer leadership

🏃‍♂️ 00:37:05 Hustle culture, burnout, and what Europe gets right

📵 00:40:25 Boundaries with tech, media, and modeling change for the next generation

Full Transcript 

INTRO
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:25
Layne Fawns
So you're brilliant at hitting your goals. But how often do you take a step back and look at those results and think about what they're actually doing for you, or for your company? On today's episode of Innovators Inside, we sit down with doctor Sharon Spano. She holds a PhD in organizational and human systems and works with high impact founders and executives to move beyond the achievement stage.

00:00:22:26 - 00:00:47:25
Layne Fawns
You know that relentless grind for metrics and titles and exits? She's going to help us find her way into a deeper, more meaningful and sustainable way of leadership. We're going to look at the emptiness of success and how unresolved trauma can find its way into boardrooms and product meetings. And we're going to look at how your ability to innovate is directly tied to your capacity for self-awareness, not just the hustle.

00:00:47:26 - 00:01:05:13
Layne Fawns
So if you're a leader building what's next and something just isn't lining up, whether that's in your company or your life, then this conversation can offer you a roadmap toward growth. Welcome to Innovators Insight. Let's dive in.

EPISODE - INTERVIEW
00:01:05:15 - 00:01:08:27
Ian Bergman
Sharon, it's really good to see you this afternoon. How are you?

00:01:09:00 - 00:01:12:05
Sharon Spano
I am great. Thank you so much for having me on board today.

00:01:12:08 - 00:01:26:29
Ian Bergman
Thanks for coming. Onto the pod. It is a Monday afternoon in July. As we record this, I think many of our listeners will have some time distance from from this recording, but it's it's the height of summer and I, you know, so I appreciate you taking a little time.

00:01:27:01 - 00:01:28:28
Sharon Spano
Well, I'm glad to be here.

00:01:29:01 - 00:01:49:07
Ian Bergman
And we had a chance to catch up a little while ago. I'm really actually looking forward to this conversation. We got a chance to get to know each other outside of the context of a podcast, and there's so much ground to cover, so much about leadership, so much about carrying sort of our human selves into the workplace and vice versa.

00:01:49:14 - 00:02:18:05
Ian Bergman
We're going to get into it. For folks who don't know her, doctor Sharon Spano, helps high impact leaders break through what's holding them back to become better leaders, not just for themselves, not just for their businesses, but for their families and those around them. Sharon, thanks for coming on. Innovators inside. I would love to ask you to start maybe by introducing a little bit of your background.

00:02:18:06 - 00:02:28:09
Ian Bergman
You've got your PhD in human and organizational systems. How did your work lead to where you're sitting today, and the type of work that you're doing today?

00:02:28:11 - 00:02:52:13
Sharon Spano
Well, it's a long journey and I won't go into all of it, but I started out actually doing advocacy work, because I had a son that was born with a disability and that kind of spearheaded into speaking engagements and consulting work and all these other things that I really didn't plan for. I had I had, you know, no idea that I was going to even have talent and skills in some of those areas.

00:02:52:15 - 00:03:10:11
Sharon Spano
And, as I got deeper into the consulting work, one of the things that I noted and I always tell the story literally often by 10:00 in the morning, I'd have 2 or 3 people crying at the front of the room about something that was going on in their department, and it was usually around a boss that, you know, they weren't.

00:03:10:12 - 00:03:46:04
Sharon Spano
They were challenged by, I heard horrendous stories of leadership that were very concerning to me. And then from that, I really got more and more interested in leadership development and started doing strategic planning, leadership development and things of that nature all across North America. And when most of the major, you know, fortune 500 companies. And then one thing just kind of led to another, because the deeper I got into working with the groups, which I loved, I also saw that there was quite a bit behind each individual, you know, that particularly the high achievers at the highest level, at the C-suite level.

00:03:46:06 - 00:04:10:00
Sharon Spano
Those guys, those women were caring a lot, and the work now has morphed into more and more about human development, consciousness. I've got a lot of training in trauma. And one of the things that has surprised me in is to see how many high achievers have some level of trauma in their background that has really catapulted them to achieve.

00:04:10:02 - 00:04:32:06
Sharon Spano
But then they hit a wall sometimes. And then we have to, you know, dig a little deeper and, and resolve some issues. And, you know, trauma can be anything from capital, t to lowercase t, as I always say, sometimes it's something is as normal as my parents divorced when I was four years old. And sometimes it's bigger things, like, you know, my father died when I was a kid or whatever.

00:04:32:08 - 00:04:53:01
Sharon Spano
But we find when we can do that deeper work, then they're even more fully positioned to be successful beyond what they've been in the past. And so that's kind of the short version, but it's been an evolutionary process for me. And I've had too many certifications, a lot of training, you know, a lot of education. I've never been an academic.

00:04:53:01 - 00:04:59:28
Sharon Spano
I've always been out in the field, and I've learned so much from the people that I work with that it's just been a privilege to serve.

00:05:00:03 - 00:05:31:09
Ian Bergman
And it's a thank you. Thanks for that. That background, and part of the reason I'm so excited for this conversation is I think, you know, we're on a podcast where we talk about innovation and we talk about the ingredients for innovation and the stories and the outcomes and all of the things around it. And I do think that one of those underappreciated, ingredients to successful innovation is, of course, the leadership that people take, right?

00:05:31:13 - 00:05:57:08
Ian Bergman
The how how people show up as leaders trying to do something new, something iterative. And that's a hard thing to do, right? It's a hard it's a hard thing to carry. It's a hard burden for a leader. And so I'm looking forward to this conversation. I have I have one more question. You know, you spend a lot of time talking about the emptiness of success experienced by high achievers.

00:05:57:10 - 00:06:12:21
Ian Bergman
Can you share a little bit more about that? Because I think so many of us, you know, will look at accomplished business executives, political, you know, leaders, artists, whatever they are. And, you know, our first thought is like, wow, life must be perfect.

00:06:12:23 - 00:06:34:21
Sharon Spano
Yeah. Well, let me put it in the context of human development, which is where I live. And I'll, I'll just I'll try to keep this succinct because it's very complicated. But what we know is there are 12 stages of human development based on the research that's out there today. And so most people in the American workforce, I think the latest data is somewhere like 62, maybe 65%.

00:06:34:24 - 00:06:57:10
Sharon Spano
They fall at either level 5 or 6. And six is what we, you know, call the achiever stage. That's where a lot of entrepreneurs live. And so at that achiever stage they're all and there's nothing wrong. Not one stage is not better than the other. They're just different perspectives on how to do life at the achiever stage. You know we're typically you know we're in the in the grind.

00:06:57:11 - 00:07:27:08
Sharon Spano
We're chasing time. We're chasing money. You know we've got goals. And you know everything is about goal orientation. So when the high achiever achieves all of those things that he or she has been after for most of their career, you know, now I've got the the cars, the house, the 2.5 kids, you know, all the accolades, you know, the business is growing or I've got the position I've always dreamed of then then it's not uncommon for people to kind of hit a wall and ask the harder existential questions.

00:07:27:08 - 00:07:30:18
Sharon Spano
Is this all there is? Because I'm here now. Now what?

00:07:30:18 - 00:07:31:00
Ian Bergman
Yeah.

00:07:31:02 - 00:07:55:05
Sharon Spano
You know, how many, how many more cars can I buy? How many? You know, whatever. And so, what I really like people to understand is that that is an opportunity, to grow and develop to a later stage. It's it's really nature telling you, you now are longing for some other, more different, perhaps even more profound level of fulfillment.

00:07:55:07 - 00:08:15:06
Sharon Spano
The, the the concrete, measures of success are no longer fulfilling to you in the same way. Doesn't mean we still don't want those things. I just bought a brand new car, and I love the darn thing. You know, I still want those things, but I want other things as well. Gratification looks different as I get into the later stages.

00:08:15:09 - 00:08:32:16
Sharon Spano
And so rather than feel, you know, back in the day, we used to call it like a middle aged crisis, that empty feeling and that that's often when people start deciding they want to live somewhere else, or they want to quit their job, or they want a divorce, or, you know, the old cliche, you know, having affairs and whatever.

00:08:32:19 - 00:08:45:24
Sharon Spano
But really, it's it's just it's the consciousness, the body, the mind, the spirit saying, this is time for me to grow up and into something bigger than where I've been before.

00:08:45:27 - 00:09:01:11
Ian Bergman
So how do we do that? I mean, how do we balance the sort of like, ambition and goal setting that has driven so many of us with a concept of maybe a a different concept of fulfillment? Well, I mean, I'm sure there's no simple question. I'm just going to throw the big one at you here.

00:09:01:14 - 00:09:26:10
Sharon Spano
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's what I do every day because most of the people that come to me, you know, are feeling that like they know something's missing or something that often use the word I'm stuck, you know, or I'm unfulfilled, you know, something like that. And so we're we're we do the work. I mean, to have a process that helps them really start to witness themselves, because it's really about becoming awake and knowing yourself in a completely different way.

00:09:26:16 - 00:09:50:05
Sharon Spano
So, so we we go through a process that allows them to really start to see themselves and identify what it is that they want beyond where they are. And we always say, in the developmental world, everything transcends and includes. So it's not like we're we're cutting off what came before. We're just adding to it. We're we're advancing it, to another level, if that makes sense.

00:09:50:07 - 00:10:13:24
Ian Bergman
Well, it it does. I have to imagine, though, and I, I actually I really want to kind of dive into this for a second. I have to imagine that that's not a short process, right, to get people to really reflect and maybe take a different perspective on what they want or what they want next. Is this your Potential Unleashed program?

00:10:13:24 - 00:10:15:08
Ian Bergman
Is that how you operate this?

00:10:15:15 - 00:10:35:16
Sharon Spano
Yeah, that's one of the offerings that I have from my 1 to 1 clients. It's a 12 week intensive, and I've it's really a hybrid of all my training and all the years that I've worked in the field. And we do find, I used to do it as a six month, but with people being so inundated with so much today, I find that they were losing momentum.

00:10:35:17 - 00:10:55:07
Sharon Spano
You know, it's it's better if we meet every week. And so we've we've managed to turn it into a 12 week intensive that most people can really gain a lot of, ground in the 12 weeks. Sometimes I'll have clients that want to do another round. I've had clients. It'll stay a year, you know. And do do you know more than one round?

00:10:55:09 - 00:11:13:28
Sharon Spano
But the work is designed and it's all customized. I have a structure for it, but it's customized in a way that I can quickly move people through, to at least another level of understanding. And then they may go off for a while, as some do. And then, you know, now they need to come back down the road as things settle or whatever.

00:11:14:01 - 00:11:16:18
Sharon Spano
Because this is a lifelong journey that we're living, right?

00:11:16:19 - 00:11:17:20
Ian Bergman
Yeah.

00:11:17:22 - 00:11:43:09
Sharon Spano
We should always be conscious in my mind, of how to grow into that next place in life. You know, whatever, whatever it's going to be for you. Because, I mean, we only have one life, so why not live it to the fullest extent possible? I think when we stop growing is when people really, you know, depression, anxiety, a lot of the other things that I also see, come into play because people just start giving up.

00:11:43:12 - 00:11:53:24
Sharon Spano
But if you stay curious and you stay conscious and you're focused on, you know, growing, it's it's a pretty exciting journey and there's no end to it until the end.

00:11:53:27 - 00:12:22:10
Ian Bergman
Well, and for those of us without that, without the kind of foundational background in sort of psychology, but also and human development here, it's is this unnecessarily linear journey through these stages. Or do people go back and forth like I have? I have to imagine that some people are going to come out of, you know, an intensive period of work with you, really energized, really convicted around what they want, what their goals are.

00:12:22:13 - 00:12:33:03
Ian Bergman
But I, I could so easily see people backsliding right, for it, unable to achieve something, changes in their family life. Who knows. I am I thinking about this properly?

00:12:33:05 - 00:12:52:12
Sharon Spano
Well, you are to some extent in that when we expand consciousness, I mean you expanded. You have now a different perspective. I was used with respect to the stages. I like to use the analogy of a mountain, you know, as a baby. I'm in my crib. All I know is I'm. I live on Main Street in my crib and I can see my fist.

00:12:52:15 - 00:13:10:16
Sharon Spano
But, you know, if you start climbing that mountain of consciousness and now I'm up at the top of Mount Mitchell, which is where I'm here in North Carolina, I can see four states. I have a broader expansion, sure, but yeah, I'm not going to stay on that mountaintop all the time. So we often talk about it as the center of gravity.

00:13:10:18 - 00:13:33:13
Sharon Spano
So I might be, for instance, at the achiever stage for many, many, many years or forever. You know, that's fine as long as my life is robust at that stage. But then if I do the work and I move to another stage, I will stay there until another life event might happen or some kind of stress, and then I might slip back down for a bit.

00:13:33:13 - 00:13:57:21
Sharon Spano
But the difference is I'm not there very long because I now know something bigger and better. So it was so kind of the simple way I like to explain it in is if we think of the early stages, we all are familiar with those because that's from birth to, you know, like adolescent. The first four. Yeah. I always say, you know, a baby doesn't forget to crawl when he or she learns to walk.

00:13:57:24 - 00:14:06:21
Sharon Spano
They just don't crawl as often. I still know how to crawl. Even even, you know, at my age, you know how to crawl. We just don't crawl because we know how to walk right? So it's.

00:14:06:21 - 00:14:08:19
Ian Bergman
Kind of. And it makes my knees hurt and.

00:14:08:20 - 00:14:39:21
Sharon Spano
Yeah. Exactly. So it's kind of the same thing is that once, once my consciousness expands and I have a greater awareness of self and others and humanity, it's not just about my egocentric desires. Now, I now have a broader expansion of the world and even the universe. As I get into the later stages, I'm going to be there until, you know, I do have maybe a moment, but I can pull myself out much quicker because I have that awareness of how to do so.

00:14:39:24 - 00:15:03:23
Ian Bergman
Yeah, that makes sense. And I think, you know, this this is one of those topics that at least for sort of how my mind works, it feels like you really have to kind of wallow in. Right. Like I understand the framework and it feels so it feels so important to be able to advance to a next stage. But to really understand it, I think you probably have to do the work.

00:15:03:26 - 00:15:36:18
Ian Bergman
Right. But let me ask you one question. What are the negatives for a leader or the potential negatives for a leader of sort of, moving to the to the next, to the next level, like moving beyond to the achiever stage, for instance. Are you am I going to end up a little bit too content a little bit too zen, and all of a sudden lose the drive that keeps me and the lifestyle I'm accustomed to or the reputational, you know, context I'm accustomed to, etc..

00:15:36:20 - 00:16:04:25
Sharon Spano
That's a great question, because the there is that possibility. I prefer to think of it as a calmness. And again, the integration is more, prevalent when you get to the later stages where you feel the calmness, you're actually more focused, you're able to be more creative and more innovative. The downside could be that if I don't do the work in the earlier stages and often psychologists refer to this as shadow work.

00:16:04:27 - 00:16:34:03
Sharon Spano
So if I have unresolved trauma or any of you know, the negatives of my earlier life that I have not addressed, we we tend to bring that with us and it's just almost personified more so at the later stages. It's kind of hard to explain because that's all unique to the individual. But that's why it's important, to, to really, you know, explore why you are where you are, why, who you are.

00:16:34:06 - 00:16:53:22
Sharon Spano
You know, as soon as you can in those earlier stages so that when you advance, you kind of have a clean slate to some degree. I mean, never entirely, I was I like to refer to it as my nerdiness. So I know that when I'm stressed out, you know, I'm going to slide back down to this level of whatever Sharon Spano is when she's at her worst.

00:16:53:24 - 00:17:02:07
Sharon Spano
But I have awareness of it such that I can see it literally in the moment. And again, pull myself out a lot quicker.

00:17:02:10 - 00:17:25:26
Ian Bergman
Yeah, it makes sense. My, my, Gosh, I, I, I don't mean this to sound, dismissive is not the word I'm looking for, but I, I don't I don't mean to bring such a trivial example, but honestly, I, I know when I get off a long plane, for instance, I am not my best self. I have probably dropped a cognitive level.

00:17:25:26 - 00:17:51:11
Ian Bergman
I've probably backslid a couple and I beeline to McDonald's and I know, yeah, but that's not the thing. And that's not me normally. But it's really interesting because, you know, I there is actually this kind of awareness that I am in a different state of mind than a general framing, and it feels like a backsliding imposed by outside stress or whatever.

00:17:51:12 - 00:17:57:12
Ian Bergman
Right, right. And I suppose that probably writ large can happen in all kinds of scenarios.

00:17:57:15 - 00:18:20:06
Sharon Spano
Yeah, yeah. And you bring up a point because the state, it's the state of mind. But how it works for most of us, if you think about it, you know, particularly in corporate environments, is, you know, maybe we have a moment where we're not at our highest self in a meeting or whatever. Most of us walk out of that meeting and we go into guilt or shame or anger or whatever we feel bad about it after the fact.

00:18:20:08 - 00:18:47:05
Sharon Spano
When you learn to witness in the moment, which is a big part of what I teach my clients, you then initially you start, you know, they're reflecting on and after the fact. But we're not we're not judging it. We're just noticing it to see what we can learn from whatever that behavior was. What I love about learning to witness is eventually you learn to correct in the moment, as I alluded to a few seconds ago, but then eventually you don't do those things anymore.

00:18:47:05 - 00:19:04:06
Sharon Spano
At all because you have such a heightened awareness that like, why would I even go there? You know, like it doesn't even make sense for them, for me to behave that way in a meeting because I figured out how I, I mean, I can literally see myself and know this is how others are seeing me, and this makes no sense.

00:19:04:09 - 00:19:27:03
Sharon Spano
We talk about it in the in terms of first, second, third, fourth person perspectives. Most of us are walking around with just a first person perspective until we're trained otherwise to literally put ourselves in the shoes of others and see, you know, literally see them looking at us, which is an interesting ability and skill to, to acquire.

00:19:27:05 - 00:19:55:04
Ian Bergman
Suspend your attention and actually be able to intercept where you're going to go. So, right. So now we've been this is interesting. We've been talking about some really interesting topics of kind of like human development for the past 14, 15 minutes. Why does this matter for innovation. Right. Why does this matter for, the people who are listening to this podcast who want to drive change in their world?

00:19:55:06 - 00:20:14:15
Ian Bergman
I promise you, a lot of them are very goal oriented. Yeah, right. I promise a bunch of them are entrepreneurs, and a bunch of them are agitating inside their large organizations for change. Why does this awareness of both human development, but also how that ties to us as leaders, impact.

00:20:14:17 - 00:20:14:25
Sharon Spano
Yeah.

00:20:14:25 - 00:20:15:18
Ian Bergman
So important.

00:20:15:18 - 00:20:35:16
Sharon Spano
Matters. Yeah. Well, think about I mean, there's two things that come to mind for me. One is, you know, if I'm not aware, if I'm not self-aware and I'm not doing what I need to do for my not only self-care, but just from the own, my own expansion of consciousness, I'm not going to have those creative, innovative ideas.

00:20:35:19 - 00:20:57:00
Sharon Spano
You know, I'm going to get stuck in the treadmill and, you know, the day to day tasks. And, you know, we all we all have so much to do and accomplish every day. I'm not going to have the ability to be innovative just in terms of how my own mind works. To me, that's the first thing. But then the second thing is, if I don't have that level of awareness, it would be so easy.

00:20:57:00 - 00:21:23:29
Sharon Spano
Then it is easy and we see with all the stressors of today, for us to get myopic about, my idea is the only idea that matters. And now I can't hear the ideas of my colleagues, you know, or of others in a way that allows for us to collaborate collaboratively, create something new, bigger and better so it works both, I think internally as well as externally on on my own behalf as well, on the behalf of others.

00:21:24:01 - 00:21:45:12
Ian Bergman
Let me and let me test that a little, because I think I think that makes a lot of sense. But there's, you know, there's this concept, that has been a little bit resurgent, I'd say, over the last year or so of founder mode. Right, which is really about the leader leading, not stepping back and managing through consensus.

00:21:45:14 - 00:22:09:02
Ian Bergman
How do you I think I have an answer to this, but I think you're you've got the smart one. How do you reconcile this sort of, like, autocratic authority figure who is through sheer force of, well, building a company or changing the world with this notion of not being myopic, not being dismissive of the talents and expertise of those around you.

00:22:09:04 - 00:22:28:08
Sharon Spano
Yeah, that's a great question as well, because I think because I run into that a lot, you know, because of particularly, you know, the Founders syndrome is a real thing. If it's an entrepreneur and he or she is built the company. I mean, and they have a reason, to have that ego and that belief because they've done the work from the ground up.

00:22:28:10 - 00:22:54:00
Sharon Spano
But often what we have to do is look at the ego and where it's showing up and where it's serving them and where it may, you know, be detrimental to them in terms of, you know, the people that they're working with and often, you know, they'll bring to me that they might be having, for instance, an issue with a partner or a specific individual on their team, and they're looking at it from, again, a first person perspective.

00:22:54:08 - 00:23:15:21
Sharon Spano
But when we dive into it, we may uncover other things that point to the fact that, you know, maybe they are being myopic or too autocratic or whatever. That's what I love about leadership development, though, is you get to help. I feel like I'm just a crucible, or I'm holding up a mirror for the leader to see themselves, and there's no greater compliment.

00:23:15:21 - 00:23:26:02
Sharon Spano
And I had one of my clients on Father's Day send me a voxer and said, I'm a better father because of your guidance, that yeah.

00:23:26:04 - 00:23:30:13
Ian Bergman
As a father myself, like that actually almost makes me tear up it.

00:23:30:16 - 00:23:53:03
Sharon Spano
Well, it did me. It made my Father's Day because I said, that's why I say better leaders for themselves, their businesses and their families. Because I see so many leaders who are, you know, just by default, having to sacrifice their families to some degree in order to maintain the level of commitment that they need, you know, for their businesses.

00:23:53:05 - 00:24:19:07
Sharon Spano
And so I, you know, I don't push that, but it almost always comes up where they're feeling disconnected from their children or their wives or whatever are their husbands. And then we go down that path if we need to. And that's part of the whole life experience is being fulfilled in every area, not just one. And, I just love that the potential to be able to do that.

00:24:19:13 - 00:24:27:10
Sharon Spano
So I don't know if I'm answering your question about the Founder's syndrome, and I'd love to hear your perspective because you had a thought about that. Tell me what you're thinking.

00:24:27:11 - 00:24:56:23
Ian Bergman
Well, well, no, it is it is really interesting. And I'm actually I'm noting I'm noting the terminology that you're using as well on founder syndrome. And the first, the terminology that I was using on founder mode, and I don't know if that, if that matters, but I think, I think what you said makes sense, right? There is a, an enormous amount of inertia behind how people operate when they've built a company, when they have driven change in a large organization, whatever.

00:24:56:23 - 00:25:36:05
Ian Bergman
Because what has worked in the past will work in the future, right? Of course. You know, of course it will until it doesn't. But, and there is a little bit, I think, of, of a syndrome that I feel like, yes, I've seen around people constructing blinders around themselves because of what's worked in the past. But then there's this counterforce and there's this counterforce that, if you let go of your identity as a leader, if you and maybe the leader, and if you let go of the vision that you paint and your authority to set direction for an organization, the organization can stumble.

00:25:36:08 - 00:26:06:15
Ian Bergman
Right. And I think there's there's this there's this concept in Silicon Valley, that differentiates between, you know, the founders who have almost the moral authority to make hard decisions and the managers that maybe don't and maybe are reacting to different incentives. And, you know, the idea that that founder, that leader, is, is in a better place if they're operating as a, as a leader, they're not just reacting to those around them.

00:26:06:15 - 00:26:40:28
Ian Bergman
And so it's it's interesting because where I was going, where I was going with my thinking is that, the best founders that I've worked with and to an extent, the best executives at fortune 500, firms that I've worked with or for have held on to their identity as strong leaders and people with the not just executive of moral authority to make hard decisions, but they have not forgotten to be curious and to integrate the the knowledge of those around them.

00:26:40:28 - 00:27:05:03
Ian Bergman
Right. I was at so I was I was at Microsoft during the, the early Satya years where, you know, Satya Nadella came in and went, took the whole company into learning mode. He had all of the authority in the world, but he took the entire company and himself into deep learning mode. But the interesting thing was that.

00:27:05:05 - 00:27:06:21
Sharon Spano
I said, how exciting that must have been.

00:27:06:21 - 00:27:28:16
Ian Bergman
It was exciting. It was exciting. But the thing that I reflect on that I find really interesting is he did that after he put one really clear stake in the ground. He gave a whole talk and he put a stake in the ground around how the cloud is the future of the company. He didn't define it. He didn't answer the questions of how we would get there.

00:27:28:18 - 00:27:56:04
Ian Bergman
But he said that explicitly. He led, he made a decision. Then he said, we're going to learn together. And for me, that's a really interesting balance of, someone operating with something analogous to founder mode, even though it wasn't a founder of the company. And the concepts that you're talking about in terms of being able to listen, be compassionate, be curious, but also integrate, ideas around you.

00:27:56:05 - 00:28:05:09
Ian Bergman
I don't know if that was articulate, but I'm, you know, there's I feel like there's two opposing forces that maybe are not or two opposing concepts that maybe are not actually all that opposing here.

00:28:05:12 - 00:28:34:00
Sharon Spano
I think. Yeah, I love I love what you've shared because what you're bringing to mind to me and what I think I've seen as well, you know, I think there's a distinction between corporate, you know, the traditional corporate stuff, as we've seen it through the years, and then as tech evolved, because innovation tech is innovation. And so it feels to me like the leaders have had to be a different kind of leader.

00:28:34:05 - 00:28:53:27
Sharon Spano
You know, they they're not doing business in the way that business used to be done. And then we saw an extension of that. I think, you know, when all these platforms popped up years ago, you know, where people just had ideas and they'd start a company, throw the spaghetti up against the wall with angel investment money and and hope it worked.

00:28:53:27 - 00:29:14:02
Sharon Spano
And if it didn't, they close it down. And I was interviewing a lot of CEOs that were doing that at that time. They'd never been a CEO before. They hadn't climbed the ladder. They hadn't had the training and development to be a CEO. So, I mean, I think leadership, you know, we only have, what, 100 plus years? I think, of leadership research, we still don't really even know what it is.

00:29:14:02 - 00:29:42:27
Sharon Spano
It's always evolving. But I think the tech space has taken it to another level because the nature of tech is innovation and leaders need to be innovative. And I guess what I love about your show that you're you're talking about something that is so relevant in these, I mean, this is such an evolutionary time, you know, with, with the onset of AI at a whole new level, there's just so much happening so fast that that's the key.

00:29:42:29 - 00:30:04:18
Ian Bergman
Like, I wonder of how I wonder how much of this is, you know, you talk about tech being innovation. I think I think that's true. But I also wonder how much of it is that it's a faster loop of iteration and innovation than traditional industries being driven by tech. And we're all getting carried along there, right? Like, like all all companies need to evolve or die.

00:30:04:19 - 00:30:25:00
Ian Bergman
All organizations need to evolve or die. That's just kind of like classic, right? I think leaders have struggled with this for ages, but it may have played out for decades. Yeah. And now leaders have to think about adapting in years or months or weeks or days or minutes. And watching that.

00:30:25:03 - 00:30:26:06
Sharon Spano
I'm sorry. Go ahead.

00:30:26:09 - 00:30:27:24
Ian Bergman
Oh, no. Please go ahead.

00:30:27:27 - 00:30:33:28
Sharon Spano
Well, I'm I'm watching reruns and desperation. I'm watching reruns of Mad Men.

00:30:34:00 - 00:30:34:12
Ian Bergman
Oh, yeah.

00:30:34:12 - 00:30:58:08
Sharon Spano
And it's, you know, I had I had seen it a million years ago whenever it first came out. But it is absolutely shocking how archaic their systems are, or lack thereof, of systems, you know, and I mean, literally, you know, their graphics are being drawn by hand, you know, and it's just almost laughable. And yet that wasn't all that long ago.

00:30:58:10 - 00:31:23:15
Sharon Spano
And so when you when you think about, you know, where we've come and what's happening in terms of just how leaders have to be aware of so many multiple systems in order to just you know, make, make it all work. And the level and the and the, the hierarchy, or maybe not a hierarchy because some organizations don't operate on a hierarchy of people involved.

00:31:23:17 - 00:31:33:29
Sharon Spano
Just to keep, you know, the game going to me, it's just it's just so exciting. I mean, I just can't imagine a better time to be in business than right now.

00:31:34:01 - 00:31:59:14
Ian Bergman
I will say I, well, I agree with you. I, I missed the concept of a three martini lunch. Not not just because of the martinis. Although, who likes martini? But the time I can't imagine. I've never in my career been in a professional environment where even the concept of having the time to do that existed. Yeah, I do think that's kind of shocking.

00:31:59:16 - 00:32:17:02
Sharon Spano
It's so shocking. What was the norm? I was just I had a lunch meeting today with a friend of mine that, excuse me, she's from Connecticut. And she said, oh, no, I, we were talking about this very thing, and she said she used to ride the train. She remembers growing up in the neighborhoods where these adman lived.

00:32:17:02 - 00:32:35:23
Sharon Spano
And she said, no, it really, really was like that because I thought, some of this has to be fictionalized because I never remember, you know, there being so much liquor. I mean, I worked in downtown L.A. when I was young, in corporate, and, but I worked in law firms, so liquor was not a thing. Cocaine. There was a period where there was that going on.

00:32:35:25 - 00:32:57:00
Sharon Spano
But, you know, it's just it's. I think my point being, what was the norm then now is shocking. And 50 years from now, what's the norm now will be shocking. Like, you know, people will look back and say, oh, you guys didn't have a clue what you were doing. You know, we're all robots now, who knows? But, these are definitely interesting times.

00:32:57:00 - 00:33:06:28
Sharon Spano
And for leaders particularly, they got to stay on top of it and and do their best to to be as whole as they can within themselves to handle the external stressors. For sure.

00:33:07:00 - 00:33:35:02
Ian Bergman
Well, it makes, you know, it does it does make sense. And I think it's evermore important to have that sort of self-awareness as the world gets faster around us. And so to that end, you know, do you have any strategies that you recommend for leaders to, maybe, maybe let's let's kind of look at that internal trauma, whether whether lowercase t or capital T, to recognize what's going on inside themselves.

00:33:35:04 - 00:33:43:08
Ian Bergman
And, impact or adapt, how that changes, how that impacts the organization.

00:33:43:10 - 00:34:10:10
Sharon Spano
I think, you know, one of the things that I always like people to consider is if you're hitting a wall for any reason. So like, I'll give an example of a client, I was working with that was having trouble with anger. And he thought it was specific to one person in his company. Well, when we did the deeper work, the anger was actually attached to a level of embarrassment that he had experienced as a child due to some trauma and in those early years.

00:34:10:13 - 00:34:27:21
Sharon Spano
And so then we did the work around that so that he had a handle on, you know, when I get triggered with anger, it's really about embarrassment. Who's embarrassing me? Why? You know, what can I do about it? How can I make healthier choices? So so again, it goes, you know, it always goes back to, to the, the level of awareness.

00:34:27:23 - 00:34:46:24
Sharon Spano
But then I also think that there's opportunities for us to be looking at, you know, just on a regular basis. When we talk about human development, we talk about lines of development. That's how we move to the other stages. And, you know, there's there's many, cognitively, most of your high achievers. You're doing that all the time.

00:34:47:00 - 00:35:15:00
Sharon Spano
But then what can I be doing for myself emotionally? Interpersonally, schematically, you know, physically, you know, the the other lines that I should be developing along the way, not just my brain. I find many leaders that I work with have a hard time connecting to their heart, to the somatic experience and their own bodies, so they don't have the awareness of, you know, when my body is triggered or stressed out, they just don't have that.

00:35:15:03 - 00:35:22:11
Sharon Spano
So we work on those lines of development to help them. Again become more full in every area of their life.

00:35:22:14 - 00:35:33:03
Ian Bergman
And does this sort of automatically, reflect into the organizations that they lead or are they work in, or is there a sort of additional work or awareness they have to do their.

00:35:33:05 - 00:35:56:00
Sharon Spano
I think, you know, to me, because we're whole beings. So when you're doing it at one level, so, so let's say I'm developing my somatic awareness. You know, I'm literally working to understand, when I get angry, I can feel my heart racing or I feel my, my, you know, whatever. You know, I break into a little bit of a sweat, you know, or my.

00:35:56:00 - 00:36:20:09
Sharon Spano
I feel it in my gut when so-and-so speaks in a meeting, once they start to understand that about themselves and experience those triggers, you know, sometimes we'll say simple things, take a deep breath, you know, start to try to imagine yourself relaxing, just, just some of those more common kinds of things so that they have a level of self-awareness, but they also know what to do about it when they do notice these things.

00:36:20:15 - 00:36:42:03
Sharon Spano
So yeah, then it then it flows over into their behavior in their work environments because they are calmer. Often. I have clients if they're really stressed out or they're ADHD or something, you know, we'll we'll do practices around meditation, breathwork, you know, things of that nature just to help them connect to their body. In Western society, we're not connected to our bodies.

00:36:42:06 - 00:37:00:26
Sharon Spano
We're just not, you know, we're moving so fast and we're working out and we're doing those things, but we're not connected to the subtle energies of the body. And those are the energies that tell us so much and give us so much information about, you know, what is going on and what is causing this, to react in certain ways.

00:37:00:26 - 00:37:05:15
Sharon Spano
So when you can tap into that, you, again, can make healthier choices.

00:37:05:18 - 00:37:31:00
Ian Bergman
Amazing. Well, this has been, really interesting, Sharon. And I think we've given we've given folks a lot to think about. One, I think I have one more question for you as we get toward wrapping up. And it's about hustle culture. Right. Like we celebrate it, we celebrate, the hustler. We celebrate the person who's constantly striving.

00:37:31:02 - 00:37:56:12
Ian Bergman
I don't know that we celebrate the people who have successfully learned to listen to their body, to balance the forces, to, you know, to suspend attention and pay attention to what's going on around them. What do you think? And is there something that we need to change as, society or maybe just the business community there?

00:37:56:14 - 00:38:16:09
Sharon Spano
Well, there's definitely something we need to change. I think the younger generations probably are going to be the ones that make those changes, because they've watched the rest of us burn out and fry our brains to some degree. But they've got their own level of pressures. You know, as I was listening to you, I'm thinking of Europe and Italy and Spain and my husband's Italian.

00:38:16:09 - 00:38:41:07
Sharon Spano
And when we go over there, you know, the joke over there is the Italians don't live to work. They are they don't work to live. They. I'm I'm totally mixing it up. They they don't live to work. They they live. Yeah, they they work to live because they're going to do a two hour lunch and or a siesta, whatever they call it, or they're going to do, you know, a three hour dinner with family and friends.

00:38:41:10 - 00:39:04:13
Sharon Spano
It's it's about life. It's not about work. And, and my point in that is to you, what you said is we don't celebrate people who do that, which is so ironic when you think about we work very hard to do the things we want to do, which is going vacation or travel or be with our family and friends, but then we don't do those things because, you know, we don't take the time for that.

00:39:04:15 - 00:39:25:03
Sharon Spano
So it does need to change. But I think it's going to take a while for us as a society, to accept it. And I think we are making some strides in the right direction, even with, you know, remote workforces. And, I know that's controversial, but I think, you know, people have come to realize I don't need to be spending two hours commuting.

00:39:25:06 - 00:39:47:20
Sharon Spano
I can get more done in less time, and then to have time for my family and recreation and and other things. But there's a we're a long way from a as far as I can see, because what I am seeing is an increase in anxiety, depression, ADHD. Yeah, you know, those kinds of things. And at some point, you know, we're going to hit a tipping point where no one's going to be worth anything if we don't make those changes.

00:39:47:22 - 00:40:08:14
Ian Bergman
I do wonder what, when that tipping point is going to be and what it looks like. I mean, I think there's there's I'm sure there's stuff where I'm posting on ourselves as people. The pace of change driven by new technological capabilities, I think, is something that humans just have never had to adapt to before in the same way.

00:40:08:16 - 00:40:25:00
Ian Bergman
So I do wonder, like when the breaking point will be and what it'll look like, because I got to tell you, it makes me a bit nervous, and I think and now I'm kind of stepping back to maybe more societal than professional contacts. It's kind of more all encompassing, but it does. It makes me nervous.

00:40:25:02 - 00:40:47:03
Sharon Spano
Well, yeah. And I think rightfully so, because we're seeing what it's doing to our kids. Yeah. And and so I what I try to tell people is, you know, because I see so much of it is just on an individual level, you know, even myself, you know, shutting off that cell phone at a certain time, you know, staying off of the computer after a certain time because it's addictive and we all want to be on it.

00:40:47:03 - 00:41:13:19
Sharon Spano
And we can very easily 24 over seven, you know, making time to sit down and read something that is nourishing versus always about business, turning off the news. You know, I, I'm just very, very conscious and intentional about what I watch, read and listen to and how much of it I allow in. And I think if each of us could do a better job of that and model it for our children, you know, maybe we'll start moving in the right direction.

00:41:13:22 - 00:41:16:09
Sharon Spano
We have to we have to make the changes, though.

00:41:16:11 - 00:41:39:13
Ian Bergman
That's, that's a wise words of advice there, and I appreciate it. Sharon. So I want to say thank you for joining us on Innovators Insight. There's been a really interesting conversation I think has given folks a lot to think about. That is maybe, you know, adjacent to an intersection all with where they spend their days today thinking about innovation.

00:41:39:13 - 00:41:54:12
Ian Bergman
I think it's incredibly important, for folks who want to stay connected to you and your work or who maybe want to follow up on some of these ideas in a little more depth. Where should they go? Should they go to LinkedIn? Should they go to your website?

00:41:54:14 - 00:42:20:28
Sharon Spano
And. Well, I'm all over all of it, as we all are. Right? But my website is Sharon span.com. And then we also will have a special page for this podcast on my website. And that is Sharon Spanner. Com forward slash Alchemist. And within that page will not only be the podcast, but we have a quiz called The Leaders Edge that's free because always when I talk about the stages, people want to know how can I advance to a later stage.

00:42:20:28 - 00:42:23:18
Sharon Spano
Achievers particularly always want to know that.

00:42:23:21 - 00:42:24:12
Ian Bergman
So, you know.

00:42:24:13 - 00:42:45:27
Sharon Spano
It's a very complicated and expensive assessment. So what we did was we took, the main six stages that we find in the workforce and we, made, up a quiz that's pretty interesting. And gives you a report so you can see kind of where you fall in terms of what I call the center of gravity, where you are most of the time.

00:42:46:01 - 00:43:00:27
Sharon Spano
And then there's some action steps there as well. That would tell you some things, you know, that you might want to consider, you know, improving upon, and then if you need more information, you can always reach out to me, through the website or Sharon at Sharon Span or.com.

00:43:00:29 - 00:43:16:23
Ian Bergman
Incredible. Well, Sharon, you'd better believe I'm going to be taking that quiz. We'll get it linked in the show notes. I really appreciate, your investment of time and follow up, for this conversation today. And thanks for coming on. Innovators Inside.

00:43:16:25 - 00:43:21:17
Sharon Spano
Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun and I appreciate your very provocative questions.

00:43:21:19 - 00:43:27:11
Ian Bergman
It was a ton of fun. Thanks for rolling with it. And have a wonderful rest of your week and your summer.

00:43:27:13 - 00:43:28:03
Sharon Spano
You as well.