In this episode of Innovators Inside Podcast, Ian Bergman sits down with Travis Hann, co-founder and managing partner of Pender & Howe, to explore one of the highest-stakes decisions a growing company can make: hiring the right leaders.

A strong executive hire can help a company scale faster, strengthen its culture, and solve problems the founder can no longer own alone. A bad one can cost far more than salary. It can affect productivity, trust, strategy, and the performance of the entire organization.

Travis works with CEOs, founders, and private equity leaders on executive searches across North America. Drawing from that experience, he shares how founders can make better leadership hiring decisions, what to look for beyond an impressive résumé, and how AI is changing the executive search process.

Here are the five key takeaways from their conversation:

1. Hire for the Company You Are Building, Not the Company You Have Today

Before opening an executive search, founders need to get clear on the problem the hire is supposed to solve.

That starts with a simple question: What is the pain point?

Maybe sales are slowing. Maybe operating costs are getting out of control. Maybe the company is preparing for its next stage of growth and the current leadership team does not have the experience to get it there.
But defining today's problem is only part of the process.

Travis argues that founders also need to think about the business they expect to become. If a company has $10 million in revenue today but plans to reach $30 million, hiring someone whose experience stops at the current level may not be enough.

The goal is to find leaders who have experience with the challenges the company is moving toward.

Takeaway for founders: Define the problem you need solved today, then hire against the scale and complexity you expect tomorrow.

2. A Great Interview Is Not the Same as a Great Hire

One of the easiest hiring mistakes is also one of the most human: choosing someone because you like them.

A candidate can be charismatic, confident, and enjoyable to spend time with. None of those qualities automatically mean they can run a P&L, scale a team, make difficult decisions, or lead a company through a challenging transition.

This is why Travis emphasizes having a repeatable hiring process.

Rather than allowing one impressive conversation to drive the decision, companies should evaluate candidates against the actual requirements of the role and collect evidence across multiple interactions.

That becomes even more important at the executive level, where a hiring mistake can influence far more than the performance of one person.

A poor leadership hire can affect culture, productivity, strategy, and trust across the organization.

Takeaway for founders: Chemistry matters, but it should never replace evidence. Build a process that makes it harder for likability and confidence to become shortcuts for capability.

3. The Best Signals Often Appear Outside the Résumé

Executive candidates usually know how to interview.

They may have strong credentials, recognizable company names on their résumé, and polished answers to common questions. That makes it important to look for signals that are harder to rehearse.

Travis highlights several.

Consistency. Does the candidate remember details and remain consistent across multiple conversations?

Accuracy. Can their claims about performance, revenue growth, KPIs, and previous responsibilities be verified?

Communication. Do they follow up? Are they responsive? How do they handle difficult questions?

Curiosity. What questions do they ask when given access to real information about the company?

One of Travis's preferred interview questions is also remarkably simple: ask candidates to explain a time when they seriously dropped the ball.

Everyone has made mistakes. The quality of the answer can reveal self-awareness, accountability, and an ability to learn.

The same applies to the questions a candidate asks. Senior leaders should be able to notice unusual details, challenge assumptions, and dig deeper when something does not make sense.

Takeaway for founders: Do not only evaluate what candidates tell you about themselves. Pay attention to how they behave throughout the entire hiring process.

4. Build the Leadership Foundation Before Growth Exposes the Cracks

For early-stage founders, deciding which leadership roles to add first is difficult because there is no universal sequence.

Travis points to finance, operations, people leadership, sales, and product as important functions, but the right order depends on the founders and the company's existing strengths.

A deeply technical founder may not need another technical leader immediately. A company that has already raised significant capital may need stronger financial leadership. A startup beginning to generate serious demand may discover that operations are the real bottleneck.

The broader principle is more important than any specific org chart.

As a company grows, founders need people who can build the infrastructure that supports that growth.

Strong operations create the systems the company can scale on. Finance brings control and visibility. Sales turns a strong product into revenue. A strong people leader can help prevent rapid headcount growth from turning into organizational chaos.

Takeaway for founders: Do not build the leadership team from a generic startup checklist. Identify the expertise the founders already provide, then add the capabilities the next stage of growth requires.

5. AI Is Changing Executive Hiring, but It Is Not Removing the Human Element

AI is already affecting executive search.

Travis describes using it to accelerate market mapping, sourcing, analysis, reporting, and research. He also shares how clients are using AI to benchmark candidate shortlists and prepare more effectively for interviews.
That does not necessarily mean removing people from the decision.

In high-stakes leadership hiring, there are still signals that are difficult to reduce to a dataset. How someone interacts over time, how they make people feel, how they respond under pressure, and whether stakeholders trust them can all matter.

There is also a broader question for companies adopting AI aggressively.

If automation eliminates a large portion of junior and middle-level work, what happens to the future leadership pipeline?

Organizations have traditionally developed future managers and executives by giving people progressively more responsibility. If many of those early career opportunities disappear, companies may eventually face a succession problem.

That makes the conversation about AI and hiring bigger than efficiency.

Takeaway for innovation leaders: Use AI to improve the quality and speed of hiring decisions, but keep asking which parts of leadership assessment, development, and accountability still require people.

Better Leadership Hiring Starts Before the Interview

One theme runs through the entire conversation: executive hiring is not simply about finding an impressive person.

It is about understanding what the business needs, creating a process that tests for those needs, and identifying leaders who can help the company reach its next stage.

That means looking beyond résumés and company logos. It means separating likability from capability. It means paying attention to curiosity, consistency, communication, judgment, and self-awareness.

And as AI changes how companies operate and how talent is evaluated, the organizations that make better hiring decisions may be the ones that combine better technology with a deeper understanding of people.

For founders, operators, and innovation leaders, that is a capability worth building long before the next executive search begins.

Have a question for a future guest? Email us at innovators@alchemistaccelerator.com to get in touch! 

Timestamps

00:00 Intro
01:10 Meet Travis Hann
02:12 Why Leadership Hiring Goes Wrong
08:35 What Founders Should Define Before Hiring
11:48 How to Assess Beyond the Résumé
21:13 The Leadership Hires Scaling Companies Need
27:45 How AI Is Changing Executive Search
32:38 Why Human Judgment Still Matters
35:49 AI, Leaner Teams and Succession Risk
39:02 Building an Unconventional Executive Search Firm
41:34 Why Hiring People Like You Can Backfire
44:03 Rapid-Fire Lessons from Travis Hann

Full Transcript

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:29:27
Ian Bergman
Welcome to Innovators Inside. For our audience, I'm Ian Bergman. Every episode I sit down with the founders, investors and leaders actually doing the work of innovation, not just talking about it. And today's guest has made his living answering this opening question. Travis Han is the co-founder and managing partner of Pender, and how a boutique executive search firm launched in 2019 that now works with CEOs, founders and private equity leaders on mission critical hires across North America.

00:00:30:01 - 00:00:48:21
Ian Bergman
He also sits on the executive board of a global alliance of OTC search firms, with more than 600 consultants in over 40 countries. In this conversation, I hope we're going to get into why leadership hiring goes wrong so often. How to spot real potential when the resume is lying to you. Which five leadership hires founders absolutely have to get right?

00:00:48:21 - 00:01:00:19
Ian Bergman
And it's innovation. We have to say AI, whether AI is also coming for the headhunters themselves. So Travis, welcome to Innovators Inside. I'm looking forward to this awesome man.

00:01:00:19 - 00:01:02:19
Travis Hann
That's a great overview. I'm excited for the chat.

00:01:02:20 - 00:01:30:02
Ian Bergman
Unfortunately, leadership hiring often goes wrong. And I got to tell you, I have lived this like if I if I tell people about the biggest mistakes that I have made in my professional life, they are usually about hiring the wrong person. And so I kind of want to start with your observations and your thoughts on this. Like from the front lines, why is it that we get leadership hiring so wrong?

00:01:30:02 - 00:01:38:02
Ian Bergman
And you know, what does that imply that we should be thinking about maybe before the search even opens?

00:01:38:04 - 00:02:01:10
Travis Hann
There's so much that goes into it, Ian. There's there's hiring for the culture and the company of where it is today. There's hiring for the company and the culture of where you want it to be in two years. There's size and scope. When you think of revenue, size of organization, there's geography, there's languages. I mean, there's so many nuances that go into finding an executive leader that can come in and do well in a company.

00:02:01:10 - 00:02:21:18
Travis Hann
But at the same time, I find that so much, and I point the finger right at myself in this because I obviously hire for our own team here, and we've done a lot of that in the last couple of two years. It's so easy to get persuaded to hire people that you just like socially, that you want to go have a drink with, that you want to go have dinner with or a lunch with because you enjoy their company.

00:02:21:21 - 00:02:39:10
Travis Hann
That does not dictate somebody that can do the job. And I'm very much aware that I've made that mistake, right? It's so easy to walk into a room and be like, boy, that person's awesome. I want to spend another hour with them. That does not mean they know how to read a PNL. That does not mean they know how to grow a business from 20 million to 40 million.

00:02:39:11 - 00:02:56:22
Travis Hann
That doesn't mean they know how to fire somebody that doesn't know that mean they know how to hire somebody. Right? Just because you enjoy their company. And I think that is something that is very easily it's very easy to fall in that trap. Right. So I think trying to remove emotions when you're assessing talent is really important, having a process and sticking to it.

00:02:56:23 - 00:03:22:13
Travis Hann
Right. When companies come in and retain my firm for our services, finding the person is less than half the battle. I almost say it's actually assessing them to make sure that they're the right person for that, but also that there's a process that's followed so that when that company is signing a job offer that sometimes could be worth a lot of money, that they know that they went through the market, they did a process, that process that's worked repeatedly many times for us.

00:03:22:15 - 00:03:37:17
Travis Hann
And that piece of mind is worth every penny, right? So I think that's ultimately, you know, a reason that that a lot of hiring can go wrong. Right, is you don't have a process and you're hiring people for reasons that perhaps don't actually matter to the job that you're looking to fill. Right.

00:03:37:20 - 00:03:58:03
Ian Bergman
Well, let's let's ground this like, you know, no names. We got to kind of, you know, protect the innocent here, but walk me through the most expensive mis hire that you've seen, right. What did it really cost? Quantifiable, unquantifiable, etc.. It just kind of helped ground us in why this is important.

00:03:58:05 - 00:04:18:26
Travis Hann
Yeah, it's it's tricky to quantify something like that because you actually I mean, you could take it as far as little as you want, right? I mean, when you miss hire, you have if you're using a search firm, you've got the search firm fees, you've got the compensation that's associated with the person you're hiring. Sometimes, more often than not, when we're brought in, somebody is being fired to then hire the new person, right.

00:04:18:26 - 00:04:37:07
Travis Hann
Because that's the whole confidentiality between our career in many ways. But then you also have the cultural component to it, right? The whole famous saying one apple can spoil the bunch. It's so true. And then the distraction and the time loss from productivity, how you quantify that with the number? I have no idea. But that's a lot that can go wrong.

00:04:37:07 - 00:05:06:27
Travis Hann
Right? And I would say that, you know, probably what it comes down to if I think of, you know, call it the 1 or 2 more critical failures, you know, that I've seen throughout my career in placements is, frankly, somebody that was probably just psychologically not prepared to take on the task that was at hand. Right. And oftentimes when we're working on a CEO or a CFO mandate, you know, we have very clear visibility and confidentiality in terms of what they're walking into.

00:05:07:01 - 00:05:25:05
Travis Hann
Right. That could be a very not strong leadership team that they're walking into. That could be, you know, six months of runway left, depending on the organization that I've done, that CEO search before. And it's something that you got to be very blunt about very early. But everyone says they're up for that challenge. Ian, when you are not everyone.

00:05:25:05 - 00:05:44:17
Travis Hann
But more often than not, people are up for the challenge because they don't want to say they're not. But the reality is walking in that door and being slapped in the face with reality on day one is a whole lot different than hearing it six months prior in the interview process, right? And we have seen that go wrong where, hey, you know, every leadership assessment told us that they were built and ready for this and their background and the resume showed it.

00:05:44:17 - 00:05:59:23
Travis Hann
But, you know, perhaps there was you know, I think of one scenario in particular, and there was probably a lot going on in that person's life at that time, not that they couldn't do the job, but there's probably a little bit too heavy on the personal front to take on that professional front. Right. And you got to dig really deep for that.

00:05:59:23 - 00:06:05:15
Travis Hann
But but those things happen. They exist. I go back to we're all human. I mean, it's the reality when you're dealing with people, right? But.

00:06:05:16 - 00:06:44:07
Ian Bergman
You know, it's interesting because there's a lot of surprises. I mean, there's money involved, obviously, in hiring and in placement and there's dollars and, you know, there's a time cost. But it feels to me that the thing that I've seen underestimated and underappreciated in the past is the cultural and strategic impact on higher. I don't know, I'm kind of curious if you've seen this, but I had a team that I won't, you know, it was not destroyed by the wrong hire, but it could have been there was a person that was brought in that could have actually destroyed all trust across an organization.

00:06:44:07 - 00:06:56:21
Ian Bergman
And that's I have no idea how to quantify that. But, you know, it gives me nightmares. Like I stay up at night sometimes thinking about not just what could have been, but yeah, how to avoid this in the future.

00:06:56:23 - 00:07:23:16
Travis Hann
Yeah, it's it's tough. And sometimes you don't know until they begin. Right. I mean, we'd like to do all the due diligence humanly possible, scientifically possible to really get a feel for how they're going to interact with the team and move the business forward. But we're dealing with something that's rather unpredictable and that's humans, right? I mean, we've got some tactics, and I'm sure we'll talk about our little Pender and how, you know, some of the things that we do to really kind of probe on that secretively and what we pick up on versus what you can read on a resume.

00:07:23:16 - 00:07:25:12
Travis Hann
But it's tough. You know, it's an art.

00:07:25:14 - 00:07:48:16
Ian Bergman
Well, it is and it's an art that requires, I think, a certain amount of commitment. So I want to before we get into sort of how we probe on this, I want to ask about leaders getting in the mindset of being ready for hire. So let's say you're working with the founder of a scaling startup. Like what are the three questions that that founder should answer?

00:07:48:16 - 00:07:55:18
Ian Bergman
Maybe write down on paper before they even engage you, or at least before they commit to the executive search.

00:07:55:21 - 00:07:58:15
Travis Hann
In terms of what they need in that hire.

00:07:58:17 - 00:08:07:04
Ian Bergman
Yeah, well, maybe that's it. I don't know, like literally how would they know that they're ready to go to try and minimize something going on? Yeah.

00:08:07:05 - 00:08:28:06
Travis Hann
Well first of all, what is the pain point they're trying to solve internally, assuming that it's a role that may not exist yet in the company, what is the pain point that they're trying to solve. Right. That could be a dry pipeline from a new sales perspective, right. That could be the burn rate is way too high and it's not going to work for more than three months.

00:08:28:08 - 00:08:43:19
Travis Hann
But what is the problem. Right. And I think that's number one. Number two is, you know, as a founder, you have two different kind of decisions to make when you're going to go make a big hire. Are you going to do it internal through your own efforts, or are you going to retain a search firm and let them work their magic?

00:08:43:22 - 00:09:02:16
Travis Hann
The latter has a cost associated to it, right? So if you're going to retain a firm, can you justify and stomach the cost of what's associated in that? And if so, what do you need to feel that you've got your money's worth, right. And that's why I go back into saying finding the person is literally half the half the problem.

00:09:02:16 - 00:09:17:16
Travis Hann
Right? It's half the battle. That is what we do really well. But there's a lot of people that can do that really well, right? It's how can we better understand your culture, your product, your challenges, your realities to make sure that we're actually assessing that talent against something, to make sure that they're good, and then making sure they say yes.

00:09:17:17 - 00:09:33:12
Travis Hann
Right. You know, people think that just because you present a job offer to someone in the market that they can't wait to sign the job offer, but that is the hardest part of the job. You know, it's making sure that expectations are set, compensations discussed proactively, that they're kept and engaged in the process. And we are the agent.

00:09:33:13 - 00:09:55:26
Travis Hann
Right. So we help the founder lock in the talent and actually close the deal, right. So, you know, when you're thinking about the costs associated to that, you have to justify all that that comes with that, not just the placement. Right. And then it's also the third kind of question I would ask myself, you know, if in that seat the company is in X today, but we're hiring for Y, right?

00:09:55:27 - 00:10:16:25
Travis Hann
Okay. Say we're a 10 million R business. Right. But we want to be a 30 million AR business in the next three years. You got to hire for the 30 million AR or business, not the ten, right? If you hire somebody that's only ever seen a ten. You're not going to move the needle dramatically, right? So I think it's really trying to get your mind and your expectations into where you want the business to be, not where it is today.

00:10:16:25 - 00:10:19:09
Travis Hann
And that's a huge, huge thing that's easily missed.

00:10:19:13 - 00:10:38:02
Ian Bergman
Yeah, I love those questions. You know, what's really interesting is like fundamentally you've grounded this like pre hiring decision making in a framework that would be very familiar to anyone thinking about innovation. Like you started with like pain and problems we want to solve. Right. Like you started with an analysis of like you know, what is a future state vision of where we want to be.

00:10:38:03 - 00:11:07:15
Ian Bergman
I it makes a lot of sense, but it's also very tactical. Sure. So let's talk about what happens next. Right. We had a we had a guest a few months ago. Who described brilliant credentialed people like this. They often know everything but understand nothing. Right. So you assess these incredibly polished executives every week and probably some less polished ones.

00:11:07:16 - 00:11:22:10
Ian Bergman
Sure. How do you help the hiring manager, the founders, the CEOs, whoever they are, figure out in an hour whether somebody actually understands anything. Well, we'll get into the psychological stuff in a minute.

00:11:22:17 - 00:11:44:27
Travis Hann
Yeah. So so we hold a unique seat in the assessment part, right. We spend a whole lot more than an hour with the candidate. Yes. The first interaction, perhaps something like you and I are doing right now, Ian, is the interview. But a lot of the magic comes in all the touch points throughout the process, right? And I think that's one of the most underestimated things about a position that a search consultant holds.

00:11:45:03 - 00:11:58:07
Travis Hann
And I was actually on an interview or a client meeting a few weeks ago with a CEO of a private equity backed company, and the investors were on the call as well. And they had two finalists. And, you know, the CEO turned to one of the members of my team and said, you know what? What do you think?

00:11:58:08 - 00:12:13:05
Travis Hann
You've you've spoken to them way more than we have. We've only ever had one, you know, one on ones for two hours, each kind of thing. But you've been at this with them for the last 3 to 4 months, and that's a guy that gets it. That's a guy that understands, like, hey, you are my agent here. You've seen them way more raw than I ever will in this interview process.

00:12:13:05 - 00:12:32:06
Travis Hann
Give me your gut reaction. Right. And there's a few things that. And I wrote these down before the podcast because I really didn't want to miss them. And there's a few things that we pick up on and pay such close attention to. Ian, number one is consistency, right? So we might have call it a dozen plus different touchpoints with a candidate when we're assessing them.

00:12:32:07 - 00:12:48:01
Travis Hann
Consistency. Are they remembering the smallest little things that we told them. And that could be crazy little small things that could be I'm going to France next week on vacation with my family, so I'm going to be hard to reach. And then when I call them the following week, did they remember I was away or did they? Did they call myself when?

00:12:48:01 - 00:13:07:06
Travis Hann
Five times. And I know that's a very small thing, but people that remember those little tiny things have really strong self-awareness. And they have a good EQ, right? And those are things that are not a part of an interview list, but we pay very close attention to consistency. There's a really strong, you know, interview style called top grading and some private equity.

00:13:07:07 - 00:13:26:01
Travis Hann
A lot of companies will do this, but you'll see it a lot with private equity back companies. Top grading is an interview strategy where the same question is pretty much asked over a few hours in different ways, and they're just looking for consistencies. Right. There's a few other things, but it's consistency. So that's number one. Number two is is accuracy and confidence right.

00:13:26:06 - 00:13:40:09
Travis Hann
Is what somebody saying legitimately true? Do you know how easy it is for someone with a really high level of confidence to walk into a room, say something that is not true, but you believe it because you're like, that sounded so polished. Sure.

00:13:40:12 - 00:13:43:09
Ian Bergman
My wife would play it on an expert now, but there are.

00:13:43:10 - 00:13:59:13
Travis Hann
Ample, ample amount of stories out there. But I don't want to say the word con artist, because I'm not saying that that people are, but they exist for a reason, because they're so confident in what they're delivering. And it's easy to believe that. Right? So you've really got to do your due diligence and double check stats and KPIs and metrics.

00:13:59:15 - 00:14:16:01
Travis Hann
And then it's communication, right? Do they know how to communicate? It's simple. But do they follow up? Do they answer you on time. Right. And and how do you answer difficult questions? You know, one of the questions I love to ask in an interview process is what's tell me the story about the time you messed up the most.

00:14:16:03 - 00:14:28:06
Travis Hann
Like when did you drop the ball in your career? And and you better have an answer to that because every single one of us have done that, right. So the person that says, well, I can't really remember a time and said, well, you know, there's a time because we all do. And those.

00:14:28:06 - 00:14:32:27
Ian Bergman
Things are what do you do with the people who've got about 45 answers? That's that's the real thing.

00:14:33:01 - 00:15:00:09
Travis Hann
Well, they're too transparent. And then the last, last part is, is questions. Right? You can really have a little bit of a quick pulse on someone's intellectual curiosity and just kind of broader IQ based on the questions they ask. And we're working on an interview process right now with a company here in Quebec. And their third and final step of their process is opening up the and the budget to the final candidate.

00:15:00:09 - 00:15:18:23
Travis Hann
And the first two candidates of that process ultimately have failed the process journey. And the reason is because the questions they're asking, they're not picking up on the slightest smallest little issues and details that they know exist on that sheet that they're showing them, and they want the right candidate to say, oh, that looks weird. Can you. Can we double click on that for my curiosity?

00:15:18:24 - 00:15:23:26
Travis Hann
Right. So questions are really important and you better have some good ones when you're kind of going through that journey.

00:15:23:27 - 00:15:48:27
Ian Bergman
Well that's kind of interesting. I mean I'm going to like I, I was hoping you would get to questions in curiosity because I think that, you know, in my in my experience, I have certainly found that the people who really bring their curiosity to, to the table in an intellectual discussion, you probably have some adaptive capacity I want to take advantage of, and I value it a lot.

00:15:48:27 - 00:16:12:22
Ian Bergman
But interestingly, that example that you just gave, you want the questions, but you also like it sounds like the client sort of has a preconceived notion of the questions that are to be asked. How do you help your clients sort of like balance the. All right. I really want somebody who can find this thing I know exists with, you know, maybe a different viewpoint.

00:16:12:24 - 00:16:44:26
Travis Hann
Yeah. I mean, in our line of work there, you don't want anything to be scripted, right? And if we place a leader that does not have success, no one wins, right? So there is absolutely no value in us making sure that that person has too much information in terms of when they're going into the interview. Right. Our job is to make sure that there's enough that we're not wasting our client's time, who's retained us when we present our short list, but they only know enough that they're not going in with this predetermined kind of connotation of how that conversation is going to go right.

00:16:45:01 - 00:17:02:13
Travis Hann
So we just make sure that the kind of the basis are covered before, before they walk in. But questions are an interesting one because I bring up they have to be strategic. They have to be deep. They have to have meaning. Not tell me what a day in the life is like working at X company. I mean, that would bore anyone at a at a senior level, right?

00:17:02:15 - 00:17:25:21
Travis Hann
But you also have two years. One for a reason. Right. I say questions hesitantly, because I've interviewed people where the whole entire hour is them asking questions, and I've left with nothing because I haven't been able to ask any questions. Right. And that tells you everything you need to know about their EQ and self-awareness. So you want to be deep and thoughtful and strategic with them, but you also don't want to own the microphone because, you know, it's supposed to be a conversation.

00:17:25:23 - 00:17:51:01
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Well, okay. So what are some of the signals beyond kind of titles, pedigree, logo and beyond the, the, the cues that you're looking for like consistency, accuracy and confidence communication questions that might be surprising to people. Have you found other good indicator signals, maybe even that come ahead of the real deep dive interviews?

00:17:51:04 - 00:18:14:07
Travis Hann
You know, it's it's some very simple stuff, Ian, that you'd be shocked even at a CEO level. You know, and I think of, you know, even just this morning, we're running a CEO search right now for a relatively large PE backed company out of the US. And, you know, one of the main candidates that that we're looking into is, you know, 15 minutes late for the interview today and with us.

00:18:14:07 - 00:18:32:27
Travis Hann
And you know, it's tough. You know, I get everyone's busy with a busy agenda and stuff. But if they're 15 minutes late for us and we put them in front of our client and they're five minutes late, we're in trouble, right? And so, you know, I think some of the best leaders have the most humble, grounded approach to things where everyone's time is valuable.

00:18:32:27 - 00:18:48:13
Travis Hann
It doesn't matter what the title is on the door. And you can show that in a lot of different ways, right? You can show that. And sure, I'm going to be 15 minutes late, but I'm going to have my EA message you so that you're aware so that I'm not wasting your morning. Right. And people that do that have a really great ability to connect with humans.

00:18:48:13 - 00:19:19:19
Travis Hann
And I know, you know, your deep tech background, you've probably seen it all the time where the technical side of the business doesn't always have the personal side of the business. Right. And I think of a recruited a CEO for a heavily a deep tech company here at of Eastern Canada. And the founder is brilliant. The founder is deeply technical but is not the person to go out and raise money, is not the person to rally up stakeholders, is not the person to communicate a message to the entire team, right?

00:19:19:20 - 00:19:36:14
Travis Hann
So that's a different person. And we found that person that can be their right hand. But where I'm going with this is really that you've got to have value for everyone's time. And I think those are the important things that we pay attention to. And it could be little things, right? It could be putting on a collared shirt when you go into a meet.

00:19:36:15 - 00:19:56:00
Travis Hann
I mean, the amount of meetings we've had where that doesn't happen and it just it sets the tone wrong. It just does. And so there's all those little nuances. And I mean, it's easy to say and it's easy to pick. We could talk about KPIs and NLS and revenue growth and EBITDA and margins and all that stuff. But at the end of the day, some of the simple things are what gets you into the room and then you got to sell it, right.

00:19:56:04 - 00:20:00:11
Ian Bergman
Yeah, it makes total sense. And I'm glad I'm wearing a collared shirt for this.

00:20:00:13 - 00:20:03:08
Travis Hann
This I say that and I'm not. But I got a blazer on.

00:20:03:08 - 00:20:30:00
Ian Bergman
So for for those on audio don't worry. Perfectly was yet but hey. Okay, so before I move on to the next section, just like really tactical, right? We work with a ton of really early stage founders, right. So they're building companies at the earliest stage. You know, what would be your sort of standard archetypical list of the first five leadership hires and their sequence?

00:20:30:02 - 00:20:34:23
Ian Bergman
What do you recommend that a CEO be thinking about as sort of a default?

00:20:34:25 - 00:20:56:11
Travis Hann
Yeah, I'd like to think that the founders you're referencing are probably the technical brains behind the business. So when I often are. Yeah. So I don't know if I would add like tech or engineering to that right away because they're probably that person, albeit it's not bad to have two of them. But but you know, the immediate things that come to mind are call it finance ops, HR, sales, product.

00:20:56:13 - 00:21:19:04
Travis Hann
Right. The sequence is tough. I mean, it's hard to not say finance is very early days because figuring the money stuff out later is not a recipe for success. But, you know, in a really early stage it could be too premature sometimes. I mean, you could outsource a lot of that stuff, but, you know, call it post fundraising round finance should be pretty, pretty early on the list.

00:21:19:06 - 00:21:39:05
Travis Hann
I do value ops very early on. And the reason I say that is I've experienced that myself building this firm, even though we're not a deeply technical business, if you don't have the foundation figured out to an organization, you can't scale it. You just can't. Yeah, and the walls will crumble when the sales and clients come so you can attract them all in the world.

00:21:39:05 - 00:22:02:13
Travis Hann
But if that foundation is not built, it's not going to work. And ops can be a Jack or Jill of all trades, right? To to sort out everything from infrastructure to technology to software to teams to, to org charts, everything. But that's pretty early in the list. And then sales, I mean, you know, often the deeply technical founder is probably not the person oftentimes making the noise in the market, signing MSAs or signing agreements and new clients.

00:22:02:13 - 00:22:19:21
Travis Hann
Right. So you need that to, to drive a health healthy business and product is probably earlier than anything I just said. So I'm kind of saying them in reverse, which will confuse your listeners. But product is important because without a bad product, you can't have sales. Without a bad product, operations doesn't matter.

00:22:19:25 - 00:22:47:16
Ian Bergman
And I want to I mean this is really interesting. Like don't worry. Well I'm confused the listeners we'll order that. And obviously it's always it depends. But I'm actually really intrigued by the order that you initially laid out, which was finance ops, HR, sales product. Because you're right, it is non-intuitive. It is nonstandard in many cases. But, you know, the way I heard that is you are suggesting that you layer in executives that are foundations for future growth.

00:22:47:16 - 00:23:04:15
Ian Bergman
And I think I'll be honest, I think HR is the one that a lot of people would argue with. It's in fact the one I would argue with in that order. And, you know, does it get folded into ops and all that good stuff. But, you know, you're saying something by putting product last. And I don't know if you mean to be, but you are saying something.

00:23:04:17 - 00:23:24:27
Travis Hann
I say it hesitantly, right. Because this is a question that's a little bit gray, because every organization and every reality is a little bit different. If I think about this story that I just referenced to where I found the CEO to be the business person, that founder didn't need a product or an engineering leader for the first five years, because that person was the individual and they're rock solid at it.

00:23:24:27 - 00:23:39:16
Travis Hann
Right? So to to spend the capital, deploy the capital to hire a 2.0 of him may have not been the most useful, efficient way to use that capital early on. So that's why I say it hesitantly. But without that person, of course, you need product first, because without a good product, you're not going to ever need finance, ops, sales, or HR.

00:23:39:18 - 00:23:58:05
Travis Hann
I knew you would say that about HR, and I was even hesitant to put that on the list. But I'm mindful my wife's in HR, so if I didn't say that, I'd get in trouble. But the reality is the right HR person is a business partner, right? And we think of HR as the person that's, you know, you walk into the room if you don't want to see them in the boardroom and you get fired, I mean their way more than that, right?

00:23:58:09 - 00:24:19:01
Travis Hann
And the right HR person, especially with a fast growing organization. I mean, you think of all these stories where companies have raised a ton of money in, they've scaled series A-series B, series C, they went from five employees to 500 employees. Things are booming and then things collapse, right? And oftentimes the rocket ships moving so fast that no one has spent any time thinking about who's sitting where, where the seats are.

00:24:19:01 - 00:24:30:20
Travis Hann
And it's a chaotic mass, right. And HR is the people. So like scrap the word HR or the acronym HR and say a people leader, right. Who is going to do performance reviews?

00:24:30:23 - 00:24:51:20
Ian Bergman
I'm actually really I'm really glad you're engaging on this. I poked the bear, you know, deliberately a little. But like in because there are there's there there are several very famous founders in kind of the Silicon Valley ecosystem who have recently come out and said things like, I got rid of all of my HR because all they were doing was bringing me problems.

00:24:51:21 - 00:25:23:24
Ian Bergman
Right. And you're like, well, okay, I can buy that, or I can flip that around completely and be like, well, what do you not know about right now? But here's here's what I'm taking away from your list, right? Is that you're layering in a set of foundational experts who are going to figure out how to build a platform that you can lean on is your company scale so that you as a, as a CEO, original founder, whatever the title is, don't have to pretend to be expert in everything.

00:25:23:24 - 00:25:40:11
Ian Bergman
And I actually think that is it is actually a little bit refreshing that you're not going through, like, all right. So you need like three engineers to support your CTO and you'd better figure out your go to market and growth person. I don't know, I find it refreshing.

00:25:40:14 - 00:25:56:12
Travis Hann
Yeah. Well, I mean, you kind of just said the story, right. Silicon Valley founders firing all these HR all they bring us some problems. But that is also the solution to the problem. Right? If you find a really good one, they should handle all that for you. And and you never hear about them right. Like that. That's the goal right.

00:25:56:14 - 00:26:12:20
Travis Hann
What is it saying. Like 20% of your problems are or 80% of your problems are caused by 20% of your people or something like that. You know, people are the biggest time investment, but also, you know, time spent in an organization. So if you find a way to efficiently manage your people and keep them happy, yeah, it should be better, not worse.

00:26:12:23 - 00:26:35:20
Ian Bergman
If there is one, if there is one superpower that I have seen exercised in leaders that I respect, that I wish I was better at, it is everything that you just said is it putting framework and understanding because it's hard, like investing in people and leaders, the not accountability expertise. This stuff is really hard. And interestingly enough, this is my this is a little bit of a rough segue and bridge, but I'm going to do it.

00:26:35:23 - 00:27:03:14
Ian Bergman
I, you know, as somebody who works in technology and as a technologist myself, find myself increasingly leading, leaning on AI and technology to help with things that are hard and then don't come naturally for me. So, you know, I kind of I want to put you on the spot a little bit here. Right? We live in a world where AI is changing so much, or has the potential to change so much about how we operate.

00:27:03:14 - 00:27:25:26
Ian Bergman
And I have certainly had people come to me with the argument that says, hey, like, I've got AI driven sourcing and evaluation and headhunting and negotiation and the text going to take care of it, you just tell me what the problem is, or tell the tech what the problem is. You lead, I think, as technology practice in the Americas.

00:27:25:26 - 00:27:39:25
Ian Bergman
Is that right? That's correct. So you see these tools. So, you know, Steelman, the bear case for me, like, is this happening? If AI can assess leadership potential better than a resume and a call, what's left of executive search.

00:27:40:00 - 00:28:10:07
Travis Hann
It's funny. I mean, I see those clickbait things all the time. And I'm a user of a I'm a huge believer in it. I want my team to use it. I only want to hire people that know how to use it effectively. We've never been busier. So, you know, everyone talks about AI sourcing and the ability to do it internally, etc. the reality is, Ian, I can give you ample amount of reasons why, but and maybe I'll say this now and then you can show this clip in five years and say I was crazy, but I don't ever see it coming for what we do or where we add value in the process.

00:28:10:07 - 00:28:23:07
Travis Hann
I should say it is making us way better, way more accurate, way more polished. But by no means do I ever see a private equity firm retaining an AI tool to go find their new CEO for a business they just bought.

00:28:23:12 - 00:28:33:25
Ian Bergman
Why is that? By the way, I actually, weirdly enough, I agree with you and I have a very specific reason why I'm curious what you say. Why is that? Beyond the this is my job and I need to say that.

00:28:33:26 - 00:28:51:27
Travis Hann
Yeah, well, I think there's there's a lot of reasons to it, but people are the best judgment of people, right. AI can't go out for lunch with a CEO candidate and come back and say no. First of all, that just won't happen. That environment. Who are they going to go with? They're going to go with an AI bond.

00:28:52:01 - 00:29:11:13
Travis Hann
I mean, kudos to the person building it. But at the end of the day, people love people. They feed off people. Energy is contagious. You're not going to get that with an AI. But it's making our jobs very it's impacting us for sure. It is. It's making market mapping quicker. It's definitely speeding up our sourcing. It's making our reports more polished and accurate.

00:29:11:13 - 00:29:31:20
Travis Hann
And ability to deliver quicker for clients. Our analysis reporting is way sharper. Of course, these tools are all making us better at what we do, and our clients are spinning it and using it on us. We're working with a a CEO right now of a private equity backed business once again, and that's the first time I've ever seen a client spin it on us.

00:29:31:20 - 00:29:51:18
Travis Hann
And we were like, oh my God, we are behind the eight ball right now. And this business leader, the CEO, we presented our short list of candidates to to him and with all of our reporting etc. he took that. He put it in his, you know, his AI agent ultimately and used that as a benchmarking tool to create a heat map who is actually the best based on what they know about the business.

00:29:51:18 - 00:30:10:16
Travis Hann
And his agent probably knows more about his business than ours and ultimately sent us that report back and said, do you agree? Based on the heat map and the ranking of what my AI agent did five years ago, I would have said, that sounds crazy, but he's not trying to do the search internally, or he's not trying to find an AI effective way to save some money.

00:30:10:17 - 00:30:25:24
Travis Hann
He's still trusting our services and our reactions. He's just he's now empowering us to to make sure that his read is correct. And then what he does before he goes to interview candidates, he takes those summaries, he puts it in AI, turns it into a podcast, so then he can listen to it the morning of before that interview.

00:30:25:24 - 00:30:47:06
Travis Hann
So he's walking into that interview sharp as attacked, ready to go into that interview. So that doesn't mean we're losing our jobs. It just means that the style of how we assess talent and deliver our product is changing. Right? And that's one example of how it's kind of being used in the industry. But people are the best judge on on people.

00:30:47:07 - 00:31:07:17
Travis Hann
Right. And I shared that list with you before in terms of how we pick up with consistency and accuracy and confidence, AI is not going to be able to pick up on confidence, right? It's just it's a thing that you feel. It's a thing that you you want your team to be empowered by. And I struggle to see that ever being the case personally, of us competing against an AI agent that can dictate that better than us.

00:31:07:19 - 00:31:28:19
Ian Bergman
Yeah, I think, I think it is really interesting and I think we're we're dancing around the edges of what are the things that dynamics that are changing. Right? I love this example that you gave of one of your clients because actually, like that is a standard that I want to hold, not just myself, but everyone on my team to is integrating the tools in the workflow, being able to engage with the experts and the outsiders that we work with, blah blah blah, blah blah.

00:31:28:21 - 00:31:59:20
Ian Bergman
So it's a it's a wonderful story, but I feel like we're missing something about the the bigger picture of what the tools as we envision them now can't do. Right. You talk about the human and I love it. It's a callback. Your very first statement was like, remember the human, right? But to me, you know, there's also this notion of accountability.

00:31:59:20 - 00:32:27:27
Ian Bergman
And I'm curious how you feel that that's playing out in your job. Like when your clients engage with you, they're looking for help. But I have to imagine they're also looking for a shared sense of responsibility. Of course, I certainly am. When I'm hiring. I like being the sole decision maker and workers. Tough, right? Stressful. Yeah. How does that I mean, does that ring true?

00:32:28:01 - 00:32:56:10
Travis Hann
It does. You know, and I would say AI is allowing us to do better due diligence. Right. Not miss a beat and be more accurate. But clients absolutely look to us as a kind of a comfort zone to fall back on in some ways. Right. And, you know, I guess if I kind of tail this back into the AI component replacing us, keep in mind, I would say more than 50% of what we work on is confidential.

00:32:56:12 - 00:33:17:23
Travis Hann
I would never be were signed by NDAs galore, because there's a change happening at an organization that we're helping facilitate. The change of AI is not going to be able to do that. That's just a whole different level of consultancy that we're advising clients on. But but organizations, definitely, you know, when they bring us in and retain us on a mandate, Ian.

00:33:18:02 - 00:33:37:27
Travis Hann
And they're signing a called a half $1 million executive job and they're paying the recruitment fee for that, etc.. It, you know, it's for peace of mind half the time, right? It's to make sure that not not not to say Travis and his team knows best that this is the right person for our company, but it's also the peace of mind knowing that, okay, we need a new CFO.

00:33:38:00 - 00:33:53:25
Travis Hann
We haven't changed CFOs in eight years. This is a huge deal. We don't want to put up a posting or have our internal talent acquisition team do this. We want to make sure and pay the money to know that this is the best CFO for our business today, and to retain us on that. They know because we're giving them reports every single week on every single.

00:33:54:01 - 00:34:09:11
Travis Hann
The whole entire market is covered. So when they have a short list, they're like, okay, we've got the whole entire market covered. We've got to make a decision because we have trust in their team that we can do this right. So there's also that component, not just the the fit and the assessment, but it's also like is this actually and I'm sure you've done this in your hiring because I do it in mind.

00:34:09:12 - 00:34:17:19
Travis Hann
Is it actually the best person that's out there or should we keep looking. And that's also what you're paying for, right? It's like scour the market and make sure that we've seen it all.

00:34:17:21 - 00:34:39:17
Ian Bergman
Well, it's really I mean, honestly, one of my tests, it's a really interesting question. It's for this job, do we need the best person out there or do we need a great person? And honestly, I feel like that's a really deliberate decision to make on. And it's not always we need the best person out there. Although the more senior they are in executive search, I think we're generally trying to be that ambitious.

00:34:39:19 - 00:35:05:02
Ian Bergman
But okay, so there's something else happening in AI. Last, just this week, I think we published our episode with Dave Lambert. He's a founder of a top early stage venture firm. And, you know, he is a firebrand when it comes to talking about how AI agents are collapsing, the cost of building and running and operating companies, which implies leaner companies with fewer executives.

00:35:05:03 - 00:35:29:00
Ian Bergman
Right. Which implies that the surface area for your work may or may not be shrinking. But you just told me you've never been busier. And so help me think about this like our org charts shrinking. If they do, does the search industry shrink or does every higher just get more important? How do you think about that? And how do you think about navigating your firm through this change?

00:35:29:02 - 00:35:51:06
Travis Hann
It's we really have not ever been busier and the business is doing really well. And, you know, perhaps this skill set that's in a toolbox for a leader might look a little bit different today. And then it would look, if we were doing this podcast ten years ago and and frankly, that is the reality, right. Leaders are a bit differently equipped today than they were ten years ago.

00:35:51:06 - 00:36:06:20
Travis Hann
And we used to say what I used to do ten years ago, but things are evolving and changing so fast. We literally say what we used to do six months ago, right? And I even just think about my, my own doing. I mean, six months ago when we would do a team meeting, I would have one of our associates help me with the presentation, etc. I would take a few hours to do for the team.

00:36:06:20 - 00:36:31:26
Travis Hann
And, you know, this month I just talked to Claude for 20 minutes and it did it for me. Right. So it's, you know, it is changing at that, at that, at that rapid, that rapid pace. But you know, the the reality is I think it's a danger zone for big companies. And you hear this with the big four that consulting firms etc., cutting a lot of the middle management to more junior resources is where is the succession planning in 3 to 5 years, right.

00:36:31:27 - 00:36:52:04
Travis Hann
So historically we love to promote within. We love to bring our up and comers up and make them managers and principals and directors. But if you've just cut 50% of your workforce because you can now automate that via AI, where's the business in five years? Right? And I know that's a bit of a hypothetical big magic question, but I think it's an important one for for society to pay attention to.

00:36:52:06 - 00:37:12:19
Travis Hann
Right? Is I genuinely feel for the younger generation that's coming into university, because a lot of those early day admin jobs, I think of myself, I mean, they don't exist anymore. They don't have to. And I get it. I get it from a balance sheet perspective. Right? But when you think about the success and the health of an organization, you want to think a little bit more forward versus just what works today.

00:37:12:19 - 00:37:32:20
Travis Hann
So in that sense, I would say the more, you know, earlier experienced employees has changed a lot. I think a lot of that is being automated at the executive level. I mean, it still takes people to run teams instead of vision and roll out strategy and execute. And we're not seeing a change that much at the top right now from an orchard standpoint.

00:37:32:20 - 00:37:38:21
Travis Hann
But the skills that we're looking for in people, perhaps, you know, are a little bit more call it modern than they used to be.

00:37:38:25 - 00:37:52:11
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Well, I think that's really fair. And it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. I mean, I think the one thing that we can all say definitively is we have no idea really where some of the dynamics in the world are going. So we just know we need to roll with it and adapt.

00:37:52:16 - 00:38:27:01
Ian Bergman
What's interesting is, you know, for sort of the last couple of minutes here, it feels like you have personally, you know, navigated some uncertainty. Your origin story is certainly not standard, right. You didn't come up through a giant like top tier firm. You came in from the outside. Can you just tell us a little bit about maybe some of your origin story, what it's like to be sort of that young, unconventional leader of a firm and how you think lessons that you have learned might apply to all of us going forward.

00:38:27:03 - 00:38:47:25
Travis Hann
Yeah, sports is my background. So competitive golf is kind of where the knack for, call it competition or the pursuit of excellence kind of started. I mean, is definitely a game of perfection, and it's a very difficult game to make it, which is why I'm sitting here talking about talent and recruitment TV and and not not anything about golf professionally.

00:38:47:27 - 00:39:05:02
Travis Hann
But you're right, I joined call it a tier two, tier three firm. And, you know, there's two kind of different lines of our business. There's the contingent higher volume line of the business, and then there's the retained executive leadership side of the business. And I joined the former. And it's a great way to learn the business, great way to learn the industry.

00:39:05:02 - 00:39:25:10
Travis Hann
But it is a it's a challenging one for sure. And I very much was attracted to the retained exec side of what our industry had to offer. So this business was actually originally created as a spin off with the original firm that I had joined, and I say spin off, but it was an arm of that business, and I spun it off about three years after kind of launching it.

00:39:25:10 - 00:39:45:18
Travis Hann
And, you know, it's funny because as much as I disliked the high volume, contingent style of the business, I've actually hired majority of our consultants who had at some point started their career in that just because it shows a really strong grit and determination and ability to be resilient versus hiring from the big firms that we now compete against on a daily basis.

00:39:45:18 - 00:40:02:08
Travis Hann
And, you know, even going back to some of your earlier questions about like the biggest mistakes when hiring, it's for us. It's actually been hiring for the logo that they spent time at. Right. Like, boy, that company sexy. I want that on my roster. Reality is, is we're not 100,000 person consulting firm. So we operate differently than that.

00:40:02:08 - 00:40:18:20
Travis Hann
And we need to hire for who we are and not who. Perhaps we aspire to be one day. And and that's been a lot of the learning lessons as we've grown the team. But, you know, we've hired a lot of people that have come from similar upbringing, from me in many ways, and it's worked really well. And so it is unconventional, for sure.

00:40:18:20 - 00:40:24:04
Travis Hann
And a young guy in, in an older industry. But that's part of the hype too.

00:40:24:07 - 00:40:57:09
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Well I get it. And and well done. And I think it's actually sort of a motivational story, I think for a lot of people who, you know, are frankly looking at doing something slightly different. Just kind of one final question before we start to wrap up here, I'm really curious through this journey, like, is there a belief about hiring that you held strongly, maybe when you launched in 2019, maybe earlier in your career that you know, now, like a number of years on the front lines, has just proven to be wrong.

00:40:57:10 - 00:40:59:04
Ian Bergman
What's your biggest proving.

00:40:59:04 - 00:41:04:20
Travis Hann
To be wrong? I was thinking of my answer as you were asking that, and I thought the final part was going to be proven to be right.

00:41:04:22 - 00:41:08:01
Ian Bergman
Yeah, sorry about that.

00:41:08:03 - 00:41:18:08
Travis Hann
Proven to be wrong. It's a tricky one. You know, I think probably early on.

00:41:18:10 - 00:41:38:15
Travis Hann
Maybe it's kind of twofold. I think early on, working with people that you like is something that's very easy to I mean, we all want to work with people we like, for sure. I think we'd be crazy if we said we want to work with people we don't like. I just do think if you're thinking of hiring the best person for the job, and especially as you scale an organization.

00:41:38:15 - 00:41:53:18
Travis Hann
So I'll answer this to the founders that are listening, because for us, you know, our first ten employees had a lot in common. And still to this day, we're 21 now and they still all have a lot in common. But at some point in the journey, you've got to hire people that might be a little bit different than the first core group, right?

00:41:53:19 - 00:42:12:02
Travis Hann
And by different, I don't mean that in a bad way. I just mean different styles, different communications, different groups of clients, especially in consulting. Right. The, you know, French speaking industrial companies that we work with, you know, they work with one person on our team because there's a lot of parallels and similarities, but they probably wouldn't call our consumer consultant to Vancouver.

00:42:12:02 - 00:42:27:22
Travis Hann
Like there's just no parallels from a cultural standpoint or, you know, a knowledge standpoint. So at some point, if you want to build a really robust team, you've at some point got to go away from the bullseye a little bit and start hiring people that are complementary but different than than each other. And I think that's what builds a really strong team.

00:42:27:22 - 00:42:50:26
Travis Hann
So I think to answer your question very point blank and is, you know, early on, you know, I always thought, let's hire people we like, let's hire people that are like us. And that's kind of create this, you know, kind of sports team environment. But the reality is it's not how business really works. Right? So I think that is kind of been proven to be wrong a little bit is that it's okay to have differences on the team and diversity that complements one another versus us all looking and talking the same.

00:42:50:27 - 00:42:52:27
Travis Hann
I think that's also dangerous.

00:42:53:04 - 00:43:07:05
Ian Bergman
I love it, I think I think that rings very, very true. I'm just going to ask you some questions, and I'm kind of curious what comes to mind. So don't think too much. First one, what's the most surprising piece of advice that you've ever received that.

00:43:07:12 - 00:43:28:09
Travis Hann
Oh, that's a good one. That we're all human. You know, I think, you know, it's so easy to get in your head when you're pitching new business or pitching, you know, very seasoned folks. But at the end of the day, I remember my first pitch in this line of work over a decade ago. You know, that person goes home to their family and kids and has to cook dinner and clean the house and do all the same things that we have to do, right?

00:43:28:10 - 00:43:36:19
Travis Hann
So no one is more special than, than than you, and you just kind of have to show up to your best and don't get in your head too much.

00:43:36:21 - 00:43:57:23
Ian Bergman
I love that, and I actually love the no one is more special than you, because I think that is something that, frankly, a lot of the people that we work with may not have fully internalized. But it's such an interesting and humble statement, but it's also a statement that grounds us in a way to interact with people. Yeah, I like that we're all human and is surprising.

00:43:57:26 - 00:44:05:03
Ian Bergman
Next question if you could teleport anywhere to get inspiration for your work, where would you go?

00:44:05:05 - 00:44:30:10
Travis Hann
That is that is interesting. Gosh, there's so many places. I do really find that when I travel to developing countries, I find my innovation juices probably get their exercise more often than than not, you know, and I think back to traveling Africa probably ten years ago. I mean, you just you see problems so firsthand and, you know, you can solve them because you've seen how a first world, you know, works.

00:44:30:13 - 00:44:40:00
Travis Hann
So I'd probably go somewhere, I don't know the country, which I would choose, but I'd probably go third world country somewhere to, to really kind of get the innovation juices flowing.

00:44:40:02 - 00:44:52:18
Ian Bergman
I love that, I love that. And last question is there a phrase or a mantra that you find yourself repeating frequently at work? And I guess you can't fall back on the wow, we got to remember they're all human.

00:44:52:20 - 00:45:09:17
Travis Hann
No, I can't, I just I don't know if it's a phrase that I say regularly, but just just figure it out. Hustle harder and don't complain. You know, I think complain, complaining, waste time, waste energy versus just figuring it out. So that's kind of a that's my way of thinking.

00:45:09:23 - 00:45:26:23
Ian Bergman
Travis, I want to say thank you for coming on innovators inside for people that are interested in following you, for learning more about your thoughts about Pender and how generally, where should they look? Are you on LinkedIn? Send them to the website. Where's the best place to get and keep in touch?

00:45:27:00 - 00:45:39:04
Travis Hann
Of course, LinkedIn is definitely the platform that I and we live on in general. So Travis Hand Han is where you can find me there. And the firm website is Pender how.

00:45:39:06 - 00:45:47:23
Ian Bergman
And we'll make sure all that's linked in the show notes. But meantime Travis really appreciate it. It's super interesting hearing from you. Thanks for coming on. Innovators inside.

00:45:47:24 - 00:45:49:21
Travis Hann
Awesome. Thanks for having me Ian, that was fun.