In this episode of the Innovators Inside Podcast, Ian Bergman sits down with Noga Tal to unpack what really happens at the intersection of startups, corporates, and innovation. Drawing from years of experience inside Microsoft and global startup ecosystems, Noga shares hard earned lessons founders and operators rarely hear early enough.
Here are the five key takeaways from their conversation:
One of the strongest themes in the episode is that thinking big from day one is not about hype or ego. It is about planning. Founders are always selling an idea before they have a product. That idea needs to show clear potential beyond a single market.
Noga explains that startups often fail not because they lack traction, but because they succeed faster than expected without being prepared. Products built only for one region, one payment system, or one hiring model become painful and expensive to adapt later. Thinking globally early forces better product and operational decisions.
Corporates and startups need each other, but most collaborations collapse. The core reason is misalignment on the why. Each side comes to the table with different expectations, and too often those expectations are never made explicit.
Startups may expect a design partner while corporates expect an enterprise ready solution. Corporates move slowly and startups operate in survival mode. Without clarity, both sides walk away frustrated. Alignment on goals, incentives, and timelines matters more than enthusiasm.
A powerful lesson from the episode is the importance of defining exit conditions early. Successful partnerships do not just define what winning looks like. They also define when to stop.
Noga emphasizes setting shared metrics, checkpoints, and timelines so both sides can evaluate progress honestly. This approach allows teams to pivot or walk away without destroying relationships. Failing fast with clarity is far better than dragging a partnership forward out of fear or sunk cost.
AI is reshaping innovation, but it is also creating chaos. Lower barriers to building products mean more startups chasing the same problems with similar messaging. Corporates are overwhelmed by pitches that sound identical.
The takeaway for founders is simple but hard. Be specific. Be clear. Be fast. Standing out now requires sharper positioning, real differentiation, and the ability to deliver quickly. AI does not replace the fundamentals. It amplifies them.
Despite all the discussion about automation and efficiency, Noga makes a strong case for keeping humans at the center. Trust, relationships, and judgment still drive successful partnerships. AI can enhance decision making, but it cannot replace accountability or shared understanding.
Whether it is navigating internal politics, aligning stakeholders, or advocating for customers, human context remains critical. Founders and corporate leaders who forget this risk building systems that move fast but break trust.
This episode is a must listen for founders, operators, and innovation leaders who want to scale responsibly, partner effectively, and build companies that can survive both success and change.
Have a question for a future guest? Email us at innovators@alchemistaccelerator.com to get in touch!
Timestamps
🚀 00:00 Welcome and who is Noga Tal
🧭 01:07 The accidental techie path from nonprofits to Microsoft
🌍 04:17 Why founders should think global from day one
🧱 05:33 The hidden product and ops decisions that block scale
🎯 07:02 How to pitch big vision with real data and steps
🤝 11:23 Why corporates and startups need each other but struggle to win together
⚠️ 14:05 The real reasons partnerships fail, misalignment, speed, and unclear problems
🧰 18:06 How to de risk collaboration with goals, checkpoints, and an exit strategy
✅ 19:58 How to “fail with success” and keep the relationship intact
🔁 21:26 The story of pivoting a massive partnership when nobody was happy
🌐 26:26 Emerging markets and why new innovation models will matter more
🤖 31:21 AI is changing partnerships and creating a flood of look alike startups
🏎️ 33:20 Standing out with messaging, trust, and speed
🧑🤝🧑 35:55 Keeping the human element as AI reshapes teams and work
🩺 39:50 A real example of using AI to advocate for better healthcare outcomes
00:01:05:14 - 00:01:07:08
Ian Bergman
Noga. How are you tonight?
00:01:07:10 - 00:01:10:25
Noga Tal
I'm great. How are you doing? Glad to be here.
00:01:10:27 - 00:01:14:16
Ian Bergman
Yes, I am glad to have you here. Welcome to innovators inside.
00:01:14:18 - 00:01:20:00
Noga Tal
Wonderful. Wonderful to be here. I know we've been we've been trying to make this happen for a while, so this is super exciting.
00:01:20:03 - 00:01:43:25
Ian Bergman
I know we're we're recording in an evening in the summer. You know, this is going to come out later, but we have been working on making this happen for a while, and I'm honestly no. I'm just so pleased to have you, on the pod for folks that don't know her. Noga Tolle is my friend, my former colleague, and a leader in startup ecosystem development, corporate innovation and strategic partnerships.
00:01:43:25 - 00:02:06:03
Ian Bergman
And just, you know, has a a wealth of really interesting stories and anecdotes. So I'm pretty thrilled that we're we're making this happen. You know, Noga, just, you know, introduce yourself to the audience. Like, tell us a little bit about how you came to be sitting on this podcast talking about, you know, this broad world of innovation and corporate innovation.
00:02:06:10 - 00:02:10:08
Ian Bergman
It's kind of a yeah, we all take a winding path to get here. What was yours?
00:02:10:10 - 00:02:36:04
Noga Tal
Oh, 1,000%. So I'm the accidental techie. I had a completely different career path. And I felt I was working in nonprofits. I wanted to change the world. And then at some point, I felt like I had reached, a glass ceiling, so to speak. You know, I've gone I've done some really cool things. I've been part of starting, even a startup in that space.
00:02:36:04 - 00:02:57:06
Noga Tal
And I had the opportunity to, move into Microsoft. I got a seven month contract as a contractor, and I thought, this is cool. Let me just try it. Let me see what everybody's talking about. You know, it sounded like this mysterious thing. All these people working in tech. And here I am, 16 years later, 17 years later, I don't I can't even remember how many years it's been.
00:02:57:09 - 00:03:22:26
Noga Tal
So it's definitely been, you know, it kind of was half, half intentional, half just, you know, pure business. So I started out of Microsoft, actually doing, different marketing projects and R&D centers and working with engineers. And quickly, I was really lucky that I got this opportunity to be part of a team that started our very first ecosystem engagement with startups.
00:03:22:28 - 00:03:32:23
Noga Tal
And granted, this is quite a few years ago, so Microsoft didn't even have a proper cloud offering in GA. It was insane. You know, we were trying to sell something that was unsold.
00:03:32:24 - 00:03:36:26
Ian Bergman
That idea, I mean, that honestly, that sounds a bit like a startup founder.
00:03:36:28 - 00:03:55:16
Noga Tal
Yeah. It was it was very much like, you know, who's willing to talk to us, who doesn't actively hate us and is willing to hear about this crazy idea of Microsoft actually having its own cloud offering, when everybody was already, using AWS. So that's how I started. And then I just got all these different opportunities.
00:03:55:16 - 00:04:20:22
Noga Tal
I was really lucky to work with incredible people. And, we were such a dynamic organization. I know it sounds a little, a little strange, perhaps, for people who have a very specific view of what corporates are. But the startup organizations within Microsoft, and especially the one that we were part of, were so dynamic that every year or two, I just got different opportunities to do different things and to I managed, different areas of the business.
00:04:20:22 - 00:04:30:21
Noga Tal
So that's. Yeah, that's how I got here. I mean, you know, seven months and then all of a sudden you look back and, you know, you've been working with stores for 15 years, though.
00:04:30:23 - 00:04:49:04
Ian Bergman
Well, and you've been, you know, you've been featured in like, pitch books, like all races, all in women in the VC ecosystem. Right. You've been at the center of programs that bridge corporates and startup. So it is kind of, you look around and you're all in and there's probably a lot of stories along the way I have to imagine.
00:04:49:06 - 00:04:51:10
Noga Tal
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
00:04:51:12 - 00:04:54:07
Ian Bergman
Well, what what oh go ahead, go ahead.
00:04:54:09 - 00:04:58:17
Noga Tal
Oh no. I think just having known me for so many years, it sounds like you might have something.
00:04:58:19 - 00:05:18:06
Ian Bergman
No, no, I, I won't bring out one. Bring out all. You know, I think, you know, I want to ask about, you know, something that I think I've heard you say over and over again. I think you believe really deeply, but it's this notion of kind of going big from day one, this notion of thinking about global scale.
00:05:18:09 - 00:05:35:15
Ian Bergman
And so, you know, startups are usually driving some form of innovation, some form of thing where if they're going to be successful, they're going to be changing behaviors and outcomes for lots of of people. Why tell me about that? Tell me about this. And to think big from day one and why it matters.
00:05:35:18 - 00:06:00:26
Noga Tal
So I think it matters. It matters for a few reasons, primarily because you're, you know, from day one, you're selling a vision. You're selling yourself and you're selling you don't you haven't actually built anything just yet. For the most part, you're going to VCs, you're going to accelerators, and you're selling everyone on an idea. And if you want that to be a compelling story, you have to have a big vision.
00:06:00:28 - 00:06:20:04
Noga Tal
And I also think it just makes for very good planning. I've seen too many startups that, especially in smaller markets where, they have found a way to solve something and they know that they could solve it very easily in their own local market. The minute they succeed, in the minute they have greater opportunities. They have not thought it through.
00:06:20:08 - 00:06:22:13
Noga Tal
And that's their downfall, right?
00:06:22:15 - 00:06:31:06
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Tell me about that. Like they get they just get caught flat footed and they can't adapt or they have made irreversible decisions like it's.
00:06:31:06 - 00:06:49:17
Noga Tal
It's a bit. Yeah. It's a bit of everything. I think it's the way that they built the product. Maybe they didn't build a product thinking about localization from day one. So they've, you know, build a product for their specific market. And they've made so many different decisions that are now I wouldn't say reversible, but are going to require such an investment in order to, to adapt to a different market.
00:06:49:19 - 00:07:04:18
Noga Tal
It could be even just the simple things that like they did, they haven't set up their radar systems and their payment systems in a way that they can actually go and hire someone in a new market, because they've got this great opportunity tomorrow morning. They need to hire a salesperson in a different country. Guess what? They can't.
00:07:04:21 - 00:07:09:16
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Right up until some new startup comes in and, you know, build.
00:07:09:18 - 00:07:27:24
Noga Tal
In and grow up. Yeah, yeah, I'll grab that opportunity. And I think that that tipping point of one opportunity comes to a startup is always very unexpected. It's really hard to tell when that's going to happen. You might think it's going to be much sooner than it is, and it might be just the opposite where you think it's going to take you much longer, and then all of a sudden someone comes to you.
00:07:27:24 - 00:07:44:28
Noga Tal
And with this great opportunity, and it makes a lot of sense and you just have not planned for it. So I don't think you should over invest in plan for every opportunity in every market. But I do think you should have a strategic plan on who you're going after. Who is your target market in order to launch a product?
00:07:44:28 - 00:08:02:06
Noga Tal
Who's your go to market? But then who's your number two? Number three. Right. Yeah. You should. And you should also impress your investors and impress the accelerator programs you're trying to get into by showing that you have done your research and you do understand what's going on. I know what I said on the Alchemist. You know, panels and I listen to startups.
00:08:02:08 - 00:08:13:20
Noga Tal
The first thing I want to see, I want to see that they've done their homework and they've gone beyond, how are they going to win in the first 6 to 12 months when they go to market? I want to see that they have really done their homework and they understand who's their number two, who's their number three.
00:08:13:26 - 00:08:33:27
Ian Bergman
I like this like I like this because I feel like I feel like you're hitting on some interesting points. But one of them is that, you know, stated ambition, if you will, is a forcing function for doing homework on what it takes to achieve that ambition. And if you don't, if you don't do those two things, you know, you can build a cool business.
00:08:34:03 - 00:09:04:17
Ian Bergman
You can maybe solve a problem for someone, but it's not going to, you know, quote unquote, change the world, at least not immediately. And I don't know, I, I like that because I think there is something really distinctive between people who have asked themselves, is this a problem that, you know, some global audience or some, you know, broad, diverse base of customers and individuals face?
00:09:04:17 - 00:09:17:00
Ian Bergman
And do I want to solve it for all of them? I think that actually really separates, people with the hunger and ambition to drive change in the world from people that are just kind of building a business, which is a wonderful thing in and of itself, but but different.
00:09:17:06 - 00:09:31:26
Noga Tal
Yeah, I, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think that everybody should be changing, though. I don't think every startup or every successful business has to change the world. I think you can be just as ambitious if if all you're doing is looking to make some money, that's fine. And we do know that there is, you know, startups will typically fall into two buckets.
00:09:31:26 - 00:10:04:13
Noga Tal
One is the ones that are looking to, you know, drive impact within a couple of years and then sell their company, cash out, go on to the next thing. And then there are the ones that see the more as a lifestyle, they're actually looking to build a sustainable business. And I would argue that in both cases, regardless of whether you're actually changing the world or not, you have to have a very clear understanding of what your potential is from day one and what you're leaving on the table by not actually looking at other opportunities from day one.
00:10:04:13 - 00:10:28:24
Ian Bergman
So how do you how do you recommend that founders and more broadly, I'm going to talk about innovators, bring people along when they're when they're thinking big right. How do they deal with objections like, oh, you're being pie in the sky. How do they, how do they socialize their vision? Bring it along. What are some really actionable steps that folks can take to convey this?
00:10:28:24 - 00:10:49:03
Noga Tal
Yeah, I think it always has to be about balance, right? When we think about the overly ambitious, I keep thinking about, what was it? I think it was a Silicon Valley episode of dinner making fun of kind of the the repeat slogans that everybody, every, every startup has. You know, we're changing the world. And when they get to the actual, you know, what is it that they do?
00:10:49:03 - 00:11:04:19
Noga Tal
And it's like, oh, we help you to whenever tire shoe laces or something ridiculous like that. So you don't want to go over the top. I think you always have to back yourself up with data. You have to show a clear vision of, you know, here's here's the big vision and here's how we're going to get there. Here's step one here.
00:11:04:19 - 00:11:34:07
Noga Tal
Step two. And you have to be you have to show your audience why it's realistic and how you're going to get there. Yeah. Right. So it's it's really blending the kind of pie in the sky vision, excitement and energy with actual data. I mean, the best pitches I think you and I have seen are the ones that start with a great big vision, but then they really break it down for us and they explain why they are experts in their field.
00:11:34:09 - 00:11:45:09
Noga Tal
Where are they might have gaps, how they're going to bridge those gaps. And then what are those steps one, two, three, four, five that are going to help them to get to at least 50% success of that great big vision on it?
00:11:45:09 - 00:12:15:06
Ian Bergman
Yeah, I mean, it it adds credibility. Right. And like credibility derived from call it expertise research, data planning. There's lots of ways to drive it. But that brings people along I like that. Let's do something else. So, you know, you've you've had a lot of your career at the intersection of large corporations and both, you know, that you've been working for and partnered with and their innovation challenges and startups.
00:12:15:09 - 00:12:37:22
Ian Bergman
There's a central thesis of if there's any central thesis of this podcast, it is that large corporations need the innovation that exists in the startup community, and they just need to be thinking about change and innovation to stay relevant in a changing world, but that it's hard. And so it's necessary and hard. Yeah. You know, tell me about this.
00:12:37:22 - 00:12:50:23
Ian Bergman
Like, what have you seen and what have you learned about that intersection between the needs of large entities, whether it's a tech platform like Microsoft or one of these partners or customers and what startups are trying to do.
00:12:50:25 - 00:13:10:13
Noga Tal
So I think you hit the nail on the head. On the one hand, both sides desperately need each other, desperately. You know, corporates can't. They can't, but they find it incredibly difficult to actually drive innovation and drive change. And they can't solve for everything. They can't solve for every scenario and every so every need that their customers have.
00:13:10:15 - 00:13:37:27
Noga Tal
So they absolutely need startups. Startups, on the other hand, of course, have need corporates both for partner partnerships and for, to sell to. But those relationships are extremely difficult. The matchmaking process is difficult. The success of the relationship is extremely difficult. So I'm with you on the optimism, but the reality is that most of those relationships actually do fail so well.
00:13:37:27 - 00:13:58:21
Ian Bergman
So, you know, and it's and it's funny because like, I remember really clearly, right when I, when I, when I was back at Microsoft and I came in and I took over a role in the startups organization, our strategy and our thesis was so clear and so obviously brilliant. You know, I think to us. Right. It was like, yeah, big companies, they're all customers of Microsoft.
00:13:58:21 - 00:14:23:14
Ian Bergman
They're all struggling to stay competitive. They all need startups, startups. We have them. We can make connections and magic will happen. Right? I mean, that was a more nuanced than that, but actually not that much. And then you start looking at the outcomes and you start seeing that you know, things aren't working, connections get made, falls apart, incentives are misaligned, whatever.
00:14:23:14 - 00:14:26:10
Noga Tal
Lots of lunches were had, but very few deals were made.
00:14:26:10 - 00:14:53:11
Ian Bergman
Yeah, lots of lunches, very few deals. And you start to ask why you're like, oh, everybody needs this. Like what's going on? So you know, from your perspective, let's start with what's going on. Like, what are some of the lessons that we can take away about, why it's so hard to build effective connections and collaborations between startups and corporations and then and then maybe we'll get into some more what we can do about it.
00:14:53:13 - 00:14:54:27
Ian Bergman
But why is it hard?
00:14:54:29 - 00:15:12:27
Noga Tal
So I think there's first and foremost, a lot of times there's just a lack of alignment on the why, on the core reason why each side is coming to the table. And I see a lot of times some hesitance also from both sides to actually spell it out. What is it that they're looking to get out of, out of the deal?
00:15:13:01 - 00:15:37:07
Noga Tal
The collaboration, the sale, whatever it might be? So if you're not being very upfront, both with yourself internally, with your state, your other stakeholders, but also with the other side, it's just really hard to navigate. And you'll see a lot of times where there's all these unsaid expectations that come crumbling down as soon as the, you know, there's an attempt to start to, to do something together.
00:15:37:07 - 00:15:55:16
Noga Tal
So maybe the startup is expecting a design partner, but, you know, the corporate is actually expecting the sort of people to, to be able to deliver a very specific service from day one, for example. So I think that's one big piece of the puzzle. The second big piece is just inherent to the way that these two types of entities work, right?
00:15:55:16 - 00:16:27:10
Noga Tal
Corporates just have a lot of bureaucracy, a lot of oversight, tend to move very slowly around decision making, around implementation. Startups are, you know, it's not just that they're hungry, they are in survival mode. They absolutely have to make things happen very, very quickly. So a lot of times there's a clash around that. I think it's also very difficult from the corporate side of the house or the large enterprises in terms of the, the definition of the problem itself.
00:16:27:12 - 00:16:46:09
Noga Tal
Yeah. And the internal agreement. Right. So, I mean, if you go into any corporate just one division and ask them, what are your top three problems, you are going to get 50 different answers. Yes. Even if there are only ten employees in that division. Right.
00:16:46:11 - 00:16:58:00
Ian Bergman
Oh, man. Okay. You're speaking my language. I have such a soapbox on this. I won't go on it. But, but but yes. Like, how can you possibly solve a problem if you don't know what solve what problem matters to solve?
00:16:58:02 - 00:17:23:13
Noga Tal
You know, and even if you. And maybe perhaps there's a decision maker in that particular decision maker decides to go in a specific direction, the reality is they don't necessarily have the support of different stakeholders beyond them. And then what happens is that that entire experiment with the startup will survive for exactly a few months, or maybe until the next fiscal, when that person is moved into a different role.
00:17:23:13 - 00:17:30:28
Noga Tal
When budgets are cut, whenever something happens to destabilize, that person's decision making power.
00:17:31:00 - 00:17:52:02
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Well, I so I love this because you're, you're hitting on some things that are kind of personal soapboxes for me, but they're also like, they're just not irreconcilable. Hard to solve, but they're they're challenging. Right. Like one of them is the. Honestly, I love how you framed it as honesty, right. Because I think people get wrapped up in, you know, NDAs and secrecy and things like that.
00:17:52:02 - 00:18:10:26
Ian Bergman
But we also get wrapped up in double talk and trying to speak to another party and what they think they want to hear, right? Especially on the corporate side. Like, just like it's simple language. What are we trying to solve? Like honesty goes a long way toward success or failing fast. Either one is.
00:18:10:26 - 00:18:14:02
Noga Tal
Maybe failing fast is a great goal to have.
00:18:14:09 - 00:18:48:05
Ian Bergman
It's a great goal. I yeah. And then and then I do I do also love I mean, the timelines are a little hard to deal with and the pace of change. But I also love this notion of you actually have to know and focus on a problem and know what matters to solve. So the hard question here is for people on either side of this relationships, innovators inside corporations trying to drive, change, solve a problem, or, you know, startups who see the problem know they have a solution and are trying to get that opportunity to prove it.
00:18:48:08 - 00:18:54:22
Ian Bergman
What advice do you have? How do you how do you de-risk the conversation as much as possible? Yeah.
00:18:54:25 - 00:19:26:04
Noga Tal
So first and foremost, be very honest with yourself. Sit down and build yourself a strategy paper. You know, you don't have to share with the other side. But just be really clear with yourself and with everyone else within your company. When I say, you know, it's easier for staff than a corporate, but and with a startup, you know, you want to make sure that leadership and everyone is going to be involved in the project is completely aligned with the goals and what you're trying to do, ensure that you are properly resourcing this effort and that you understand exactly what your boundaries are.
00:19:26:06 - 00:19:44:16
Noga Tal
So if things start to go off rails and you need to invest more resources, are you actually willing to do that? What what's that point where you're going to say, you know, that's that's it's taking too much of our time and we're going to put a stop to it. I think from the corporate side of the house, it's very similar to being very honest about what it is that you're trying to achieve.
00:19:44:16 - 00:20:04:04
Noga Tal
What are the measurable outcomes? Ideally, you'd be able to set common goals and metrics between both sides and to have a very clear understanding of what the checkpoints are for each one of those metrics, so that you do have that point in time, whether it's a month, in three months and six months, and where you can take stock and say, okay, is this going?
00:20:04:04 - 00:20:23:28
Noga Tal
Do we need to pivot or do we need to say, you know, do we need to stop? Yeah. And that's another one. Have an exit strategy ahead of time. Define what that looks like so that it's not a dramatic event that ruins the relationship. But it is something that is easy to talk about because it's been predefined.
00:20:24:00 - 00:20:45:27
Ian Bergman
So okay, how do you fail with success? I actually I love this because, you know, we talk about like failing fast as being a positive outcome. Although sometimes it's hard to frame it that way. Have you seen examples of I'd say failing with success, achieving that exit strategy, not having a bad taste in the mouth. And do you and you kind of know what the parties did to enable that?
00:20:45:29 - 00:21:15:12
Noga Tal
1,000%, I think one is to well, we just talked about it. It's it's really defining ahead of time what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. And having each side of the house define that for themselves and to be very open and honest about it. If we don't hit X metrics, if we don't are not able to achieve integration within six months, we as Mrs. Mr. Startup will have to pull out because we just won't have the resources to do that for example.
00:21:15:15 - 00:21:17:03
Ian Bergman
Yeah.
00:21:17:05 - 00:21:40:21
Noga Tal
I think it's always good to also have other activities and other opportunities that you can continue to pursue as part of that relationship. So it's not an all or nothing. Right. But, maybe you built the partnership around a few different areas. Maybe it's a, you know, it's a data partnership coupled with a channel partnership coupled with some type of, new marketing or awareness campaign.
00:21:40:21 - 00:22:09:23
Noga Tal
Right? You don't have to throw everything out if it's not working. You can still keep bits and pieces of it. I will say it also comes down to relationships. I mean, the more you have a personal relationship in that, you know, level of trust and openness, I think that's become much harder these days with everybody working remote and, you know, post Covid, etc., etc. but the more you can actually drive that relationship, the more there's a chance that you'll be able to sustain, and, that, that, you know, so critical failure.
00:22:09:26 - 00:22:12:06
Noga Tal
Yeah. I can give you an example from something that I did.
00:22:12:09 - 00:22:14:06
Ian Bergman
Yeah. I'd love to hear tell us.
00:22:14:09 - 00:22:38:21
Noga Tal
So I can't go into too many details, but I can give the kind of the broad strokes of this example. So I inherited a very large deal that Microsoft had, committed to with a partner. And, this was year two, a five year partnership. There were, you know, tens of millions of dollars on the table and everything was, you know, it was running along.
00:22:38:21 - 00:22:58:05
Noga Tal
But I could get a sense that no one was really happy. And I started to dig deeper into what was going on. And there were multiple, multiple stakeholders, inside Microsoft, in and outside of Microsoft. And the more I interviewed everybody, the more I understood that everybody had a completely different expectation of what the outcome should be. And none of those expectations align with the reality.
00:22:58:07 - 00:23:00:28
Noga Tal
Amazing. Even worse. Sorry.
00:23:01:00 - 00:23:05:11
Ian Bergman
Oh, I was just like, amazing. Like I can imagine this. Well, yeah, exactly.
00:23:05:13 - 00:23:25:11
Noga Tal
We both know this happens quite a lot. And even worse, there was absolutely no way that the current agreement that had been signed and the money that it exchanged hands in, the way that everything was set up, there was no way that it could actually be changed in a way that would solve for everybody's requirements. It just no way.
00:23:25:14 - 00:23:50:07
Noga Tal
So I had to do some digging and an assessment of what it would look like to actually pull out of this agreement, what it would look like to actually pivot and completely restructure this agreement. And as difficult as it was, I did manage to, through these interviews and through the listening to all of these different, you know, people and leaders and understand what they wanted to get out of it.
00:23:50:07 - 00:23:57:21
Noga Tal
I actually managed to come up with a plan that was 180 degrees from what we had been doing, but.
00:23:57:24 - 00:24:15:08
Noga Tal
While I would fundamentally change the agreement of the partnership, it would actually potentially give everyone what it was that they were looking for. Now it's very delicate. You have to go and then you have to sell that vision. Just like any, you know, startup is pivoting. You have to go and then sell it to every single side. A new.
00:24:15:10 - 00:24:16:27
Noga Tal
But it is possible.
00:24:16:29 - 00:24:39:09
Ian Bergman
Amazing. So, I like I like that story and I like the optimism, that adapting is possible. Right? It's it's it's important. What's also really interesting to me that you talked about, and I almost feel I must feel dirty saying this, like, because it sounds a little slimy, but it's not. I actually think it's really important.
00:24:39:11 - 00:25:02:16
Ian Bergman
Is that there? You know, with good relationships, you can find moments to celebrate in failure where everyone feels they can walk away with the win. And to me, that can be really important because it gives both parties the opportunity to go on to the next or find thing, whether it's refining or revising a contract, working with a new partner or whatever.
00:25:02:16 - 00:25:08:28
Ian Bergman
Right? Startup can say great at a design partner, logo, shit, logo, opportunity, company, blah blah blah pivoted.
00:25:08:29 - 00:25:10:16
Noga Tal
We learned a lot from it. Whatever.
00:25:10:20 - 00:25:33:26
Ian Bergman
But you know that the the corporation can say, hey, we're building a model for rapidly testing and integrating. And we got insight and we stayed ahead of the competition or we got PR credit for supporting steps, whatever. And I think you can you can find these wins, but you have to be deliberate about looking for them, whether or not you have to pivot a massive contract.
00:25:33:28 - 00:25:36:06
Ian Bergman
I don't know. I think there's something kind of interesting there.
00:25:36:09 - 00:25:57:11
Noga Tal
I think what I found really interesting is the more you understand what motivates the person who's sitting in front of you, especially when you're working with a corporate, the easier it is to to help them get to a win. Yeah. How are they how you know, how are you going to help them to look positive in front of their their boss and their boss's boss?
00:25:57:13 - 00:26:07:16
Noga Tal
How can they go and sell the bad news that you need to deliver to them? How can they go and sell it as a win? If you can arm them with that story, then it should be fine.
00:26:07:18 - 00:26:11:03
Ian Bergman
Yeah, I love it. Make heroes out of the other parties. They're going to want to do it.
00:26:11:03 - 00:26:11:22
Noga Tal
You.
00:26:11:24 - 00:26:42:18
Ian Bergman
Yeah, exactly. So we know that this is hard, but can we look ahead to some of the trends that you're seeing and maybe prognosticate about an uncertain future, like what emerging trends are you seeing that might shape the way startups and corporates collaborate, and how should we prepare? And I'll give you one that's certainly on my mind, which is, I think the emergence of this recognition of the importance for collaboration in different markets around the world.
00:26:42:18 - 00:27:06:13
Ian Bergman
There's a lot of industries and a lot of different markets around the world. Right. And I certainly think that, you know, something you and I have talked about in the past is all of the uncertainty that executive leaders are facing more and more every year about how to react in the world. But but like stepping back, what do you see as trends that are impacting how startups and corporates are going to collaborate?
00:27:06:18 - 00:27:08:25
Ian Bergman
What excites you? What worries you?
00:27:08:28 - 00:27:27:29
Noga Tal
So I think to piggyback on what and the point that you were me, you were starting to make, as margins become smaller and competition becomes more fierce, I do think that a lot of you know, the emerging markets are going to be much more pivotal in companies being able to, to succeed. So I'm very excited about that.
00:27:27:29 - 00:27:51:12
Noga Tal
I know you and I have both worked, for, for different organizations and in some of the same markets, and I have found it fascinating to discover an entire new world that I hadn't known before about innovation that is happening not in what we would call the top 20 ecosystems worldwide, but in ecosystems that perhaps are, just starting to form.
00:27:51:15 - 00:28:13:00
Noga Tal
Yeah. And there's just so much incredible potential there. And it requires humility from many of us to, to understand that we just don't know. And there's a lot we don't know, especially in these markets. And I thought I think it also requires a lot of creativity. These ecosystems operate in a completely different way. They are so young and they are just starting out.
00:28:13:03 - 00:28:37:20
Noga Tal
And a lot of times the models that we tried to come and institute on top of them, you know, the kind of models we know from, you know, Silicon Valley, New York and Tel Aviv, etc. they just don't work there. They're not, you know, they they're so different. These countries and us and the types of industries that thrive there that we need to it allows us to to really innovate how we do ecosystem work with startups and how we work on innovation.
00:28:37:20 - 00:28:40:25
Noga Tal
So that gets me very excited.
00:28:40:27 - 00:29:02:03
Ian Bergman
Well, can I can I build on that actually? Because I think I think, I'm going to kind of violently agree with you and maybe and maybe tell you a little bit about some of my experiences here, because I don't know how it plays out. But, you know, we as alchemists do work in a number of, I'll call them, emerging startup markets around the world.
00:29:02:03 - 00:29:44:14
Ian Bergman
They're in some cases very mature markets. But whether it's, you know, Tokyo or whether it's the Gulf region in the Middle East or whether it's, you know, Midwest and East and central United States, there's a really interesting common pattern that I've seen, and I'm often talking to folks in these markets about my home city, my hometown of Seattle, right, which has a a vibrant and I would argue, underappreciated startup ecosystem, but it is a startup ecosystem that grew up entirely out of this, cycle of big companies your Starbucks, your Microsofts, your Boeings, your Amazon ones, your Costco's, the world like having problems.
00:29:44:14 - 00:30:09:03
Ian Bergman
People realizing they couldn't solve the problem in the company going out, you know, building a startup and then selling it right back to their former employer, making a mint and then funding the next generation. And it was it was basically fund, you know, built in, funded entirely by a challenge in corporate innovation. And when I look at it from that framework, I'm like, oh, okay, I see exactly that same thing.
00:30:09:05 - 00:30:22:28
Ian Bergman
Both, you know, it's both both the potential of it happening, but it actually happening in Doha and Abu Dhabi, in Tokyo, in Memphis. Right. Right now, maybe not in the same way.
00:30:23:01 - 00:30:34:17
Noga Tal
Yeah, completely different models. A lot of times the government will. Yeah. In the Gulf, the government will probably take, stronger. Sure. Exactly. But yeah, but but it is very much the same impetus for driving innovation.
00:30:34:19 - 00:30:57:09
Ian Bergman
And so does that. Does that like what interests me about that is that I think that that, decentralize is the ability to build successful global scale innovation because you have anchor, you know, design customers and partners starting to emerge and pop up around the world. Is that a change or is that something that's always been around? And maybe it's a little bit hidden to me?
00:30:57:11 - 00:31:18:23
Noga Tal
I think it's probably a bit of both. If I, if I reflect kind of a my own knowledge of markets and ecosystems, it's one that, you know, historically, especially as a US based company, we were just so focused on, you know, Europe in the US that I'm not sure how much time we spent looking in other places. And then it's also just a maturing of these markets.
00:31:18:26 - 00:31:26:21
Noga Tal
You know, look at what happened in China over the last 20, 30 years. At some point they just get loud enough that we have to pay attention to them.
00:31:26:23 - 00:31:38:24
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Little and they, they whiplash their way through innovation and technology and all kinds of fun geopolitical ways. We don't need to get a do now. But yeah. Okay. So so I love that. So if you had one.
00:31:38:26 - 00:32:00:19
Noga Tal
I want to go back to your primary question. Yeah, I think my answer is going to be a little boring because we can't address the changes that I believe are going to be coming into partnerships and corporate and start relationships in the next 2 to 5 years without talking about AI. I mean, I is going to drive these partnerships, and I think a few interesting things are happening right now.
00:32:00:21 - 00:32:13:28
Noga Tal
On the one hand, corporations are dealing with, you know, just massive amounts of data and it just keeps growing and growing, growing. And they will need startups more and more in order to derive insights and to do something meaningful with that data.
00:32:14:01 - 00:32:14:12
Ian Bergman
Yes.
00:32:14:17 - 00:32:39:18
Noga Tal
On the other hand, and we see this at Alchemist as well. There is such so much noise in the ecosystem from from startups around it, that it is incredibly difficult to cut through that noise and to understand who actually has a real, tangible solution that is applicable. So I think right now, like a lot of areas in, you know, that are impacted by AI.
00:32:39:18 - 00:33:03:28
Noga Tal
There's just a lot of chaos and a lot of, noise. I think that's going to die down, but I think it's going to be up to startups to be able to differentiate themselves, you know, ten x than they than they were before. If they have to get so crisp in what it is that they're offering and what are they specifically able to solve for and get really nitty gritty on the details of what that is?
00:33:04:00 - 00:33:14:18
Noga Tal
Because all of us have become cynical. Very well. We'll see ten startups in a day and they're all talking about AI. And unless you can actually tell me what your solution does, I that doesn't give me a lot.
00:33:14:21 - 00:33:34:12
Ian Bergman
I mean, and they're all talking about the exact same application of AI to the same problem. I think one of the, one of the things that AI is enabled, right, that you see in it adds noise to the system is it makes for a much more efficient launch stack. Right. And between the business stack, the AI stack, like you can actually get to MVP and promise pretty quickly with the small team.
00:33:34:12 - 00:33:58:10
Ian Bergman
And so a lot more people are able to get there, and all of a sudden you have more noise in the ecosystem. So how do you, as an entrepreneur, stand out and solve for the fact that there's probably five, 10 or 50,000 people who do actually see and understand the same problem, and now they have the tools to go try and tackle it just the same way you do.
00:33:58:13 - 00:34:19:05
Noga Tal
Yeah. I don't think there's 50. Yeah, there's usually at least a dozen that are doing the same thing. I think it's around messaging, positioning and speed. I hate to add pressure to anyone who's listening to us, who is a CEO of a company, and they're already under intense amount of pressure. But I do see this happening more and more.
00:34:19:05 - 00:34:42:00
Noga Tal
If you don't move incredibly fast these days, you're just going to lose out. So I think it's being able to grab opportunities and to jump as quickly as you possibly can. I think it's about building trust. It's everything that we know to be true about, you know, startup in corporate relationship is going to continue to be true, but it's going to be ten, 20 acts, even more so.
00:34:42:00 - 00:34:44:15
Noga Tal
Right? So and by the way, that's.
00:34:44:18 - 00:34:58:17
Ian Bergman
Been really that's actually really important. I mean there are like yes, there's a lot changing in the world of AI, but there are some absolute fundamentals about the right of a team to be the one to solve the problem. The way to build relationships like these are human things that don't change. Really.
00:34:58:17 - 00:35:25:29
Noga Tal
Right? Right, right. Being able to deliver on what you promise? Yeah. Being able to clearly articulate your value, add, being able to ask the right questions of the corporate, ideally in the age of AI. And as AI matures, more and more corporates would be able to, you know, clearly define what their needs are. Back to what we were talking about before, where we get we'll get, you know, 50 different answers about what the problem is within a corporation.
00:35:26:02 - 00:35:47:19
Noga Tal
I'm hopeful that within the next few years, corporates will actually have much clearer answers to that question because of their internal use of AI. I'm hopeful that will drive a better alignment with the type of started. So they actually engage with. But it also means that the startup has to be really clear about their value and and really clear about what they're able to deliver and how quickly they can deliver that.
00:35:47:25 - 00:36:17:29
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Makes total sense. Well oh man. Nugget, we've covered a lot of ground. This has been a really interesting conversation or coming up on time here. But let's keep looking forward. Not about what you're predicting but what you want to happen. So what would you like to see in your industry over the next five years? Are there, you know, do we want broader access for innovators of all stripes?
00:36:17:29 - 00:36:31:00
Ian Bergman
Do we want to support the female founder? Do you want to see a cultural change in adoption of technology like Utopia? For five years ago, I was professional utopia, Utopia for. Yeah. What does it look like?
00:36:31:03 - 00:36:51:22
Noga Tal
I would say yes, yes and yes. I guess first and foremost, I want the human element to remain. And I feel like we're starting to lose that. I feel like the whole notion of, letting go of people.
00:36:51:25 - 00:37:01:06
Noga Tal
And instead of thinking how to redirect people's abilities and skills is something that troubles me quite a bit.
00:37:01:08 - 00:37:02:04
Ian Bergman
Yeah.
00:37:02:06 - 00:37:31:06
Noga Tal
Especially on the corporate side of the house. I'm sure that the same is true for startups. I see startups, you know, forgoing certain roles because they want to be more efficient, which is great. But I also see them sometimes forgoing certain roles that I think should still sit in the hands of human beings. So I think it's that distinction of where, where and how are we using AI, where and how do we still need humans?
00:37:31:08 - 00:37:47:12
Noga Tal
I know that's you know, that's a massive question that, you know, is facing our entire industry and humanity at large. But I think for me, it's critical that we really keep that front and center. When we talk about how both corporates and startups continue to evolve and to work together.
00:37:47:16 - 00:38:13:09
Ian Bergman
Well, I mean, okay, so this is where I get to be an optimist, but I actually have, a strong soapbox take I don't think it's a hot take, but you might tell me that it is like, I believe the world is actually heading exactly where you're saying. I genuinely believe that AI is giving experts superpowers. It is not replacing those experts, and it's not going to anytime soon.
00:38:13:16 - 00:38:15:08
Ian Bergman
I mean, there are and I.
00:38:15:08 - 00:38:44:06
Noga Tal
Agree with you, but I think I think some people are not interpreting things that way and are not implementing things that way. And I think that I'm not worried about where it's going to land in ten years time. I'm worried about what's going to happen in the next five years, as people read the map in different ways and implement it in a way that harms people's jobs, people's livelihoods, people's, sense of self, people's sense of their future.
00:38:44:09 - 00:38:56:14
Noga Tal
Therefore, one case. Yeah, I wish some leaders would take more care in the decision making processes that they, that they implement.
00:38:56:16 - 00:39:18:11
Ian Bergman
Well, I think that, you know, and I think that that point that, you know, at the end of the day, if you believe that humans are integral to the business, the customer base, the interactions with society and everything that we do, making decisions that don't assume that they're going to continue to be integral are probably you're probably going to shoot yourself in the foot.
00:39:18:11 - 00:39:20:03
Ian Bergman
And maybe some people are doing that.
00:39:20:05 - 00:39:21:24
Noga Tal
Correct? Correct.
00:39:21:27 - 00:39:37:27
Ian Bergman
All right. Well, let's be optimist. Let's hope that let's hope that doesn't happen. Because the world we want to live in is a world where AI has supercharged and made all of our lives better not caused, you know, a lot of downstream harm.
00:39:38:00 - 00:39:52:25
Noga Tal
I don't think it will. I think it will. I think it will. It will give us a lot more time to think and to play and to be creative and to create and to innovate. I think the big question is how we get there. That's all. Yeah.
00:39:52:27 - 00:40:13:06
Ian Bergman
Well, okay, so I and what a wonderful note to end on. And I am going to ask you one more thing about the future. That's a little bit about the future. It's a little bit about today. Like what's the last thing that you've just narrowed it out on? And you're like, whoa, that's cool piece of tech, a solution, whatever that gives you hope for the future.
00:40:13:08 - 00:40:41:27
Noga Tal
I'm going to go back to the same answer I gave you at the beginning, because it just freaking got me so excited. The fact that I was able to diagnose something that had been this happened to me literally this week. So something that had been I been carrying with my entire life, a medical situation that's not that serious, but it was always there, and I had always been researching it myself on Google and then arguing with doctors and not having enough tools to go and advocate for myself.
00:40:42:00 - 00:40:53:17
Noga Tal
The fact that I was able to use AI to get a solid answer, and to advocate for myself and to get a proper diagnosis and to get proper treatment, just is mind blowing to me. My mind.
00:40:53:20 - 00:40:55:12
Ian Bergman
And it is so.
00:40:55:14 - 00:41:14:09
Noga Tal
And this is and this is nothing. This is just me taking some blood tests and sticking them in. Gemini. Right. So I completely nerd out on the potential of AI for medical advancement, for for cancer research, for just bringing data together and creating meaningful insights in the next few years that will just help to save lives.
00:41:14:16 - 00:41:22:15
Ian Bergman
Amazing. Well know. God, thank you so much for joining us on Innovators Inside. This has been an absolute pleasure. And I look forward to the next conversation.
00:41:22:18 - 00:41:23:29
Noga Tal
Thanks for having me.